Well, looks like my time-hopping has been temporarily curtailed by a fan who borrowed my puddle jumper. She promised to get it back for ten minutes before I lent it to her but, alas, I'm still waiting. And so, stuck in the here and now, I decided to kill time by actually starting work on seasons 10 and 3.
I wrote up the four outlines over two days (Atlantis episode #2, Morpheus, Counter-Strike, and Memento Mori), then started work on Morpheus which will be SG-1's second episode. It was a lot of fun but required a heady amount of research: Arthurian lore, Gwalchmei, the different stages of sleep, how the brain functions during sleep, and, of course, psychiatric evaluations. With Vala on board for all of season 10, we have to ask ourselves: Why would she want to join Stargate Command? Why would we want her to join Stargate Command? And, of course, do we feel that we can trust her? All of these questions come up in this episode and are answered, temporarily at least.
The plan was to finish one script and write the second one in January when we got back to the office, choosing one and letting Paul write the Atlantis and the third SG-1. Well, that was the plan but after a couple of days of R&R, I started to feel guilty, so I started the second script, Counter-Strike, which I believe has been slotted for the 7 spot. Lots of good emotion in this one, bonding, and a significant loss at episode's end. I'm kind of concerned about the visual effects budget on this one and will look to trim a little in my next pass. Finally -
Going back with two scripts would be huge. Going back would be mind-blowing. So, I've started work on Memento Mori, which I believe is slotted for the 8 spot. I'm only into the first act and, ideally, would love to get it done before the family comes to visit on the 23rd. This one will also be a lot of fun and have already done a little research on memories, a certain war goddess from Cronos's neck of the woods, and Caribbean deli menu's.
Sadly, I never did get to go to San Francisco. Our dog-sitter took a full-time job working at a veterinary clinic and I'm too paranoid to leave my dogs with anyone else. On the bright side, I have accomplished oodles of work, reading, and t.v./dvd/movie-watching.
Got all 24 volumes of the Goscinny-written Asterix and Obelix series and am not so sure about the remaining Underzo editions. Many fans hated the post-Goscinny stuff. Also picked up some terrific hard science fiction anthologies and read two stand-out short stories, one by Kim Stanley Robinson, the other by Stephen Baxter. On the anime front, I watched the latest installment in the Lupin 3rd series (whatever happened to the rumored Jim Carrey live action movie?), and ahve moved on to a little import I'm really enjoying, Beck: Mongolian Chop Squad. Halfway through season 3 of Homicide and season 6 of South Park (I intended to start season 3 but put season 6 instead and, so far, its been my favorite season to date. Hilarious). Was extremely pleased with the conclusions to both Survivor: Guatemala and The Amazing Race. Also watched an incredibly disturbing horror anthology from Asia called Three: Extremes.
I was particularly looking forward to Three: Extremes because a) I'm a fan of horror movies, b) I'm a fan of Asian horror movies in particular, and c) I loved the prospect of seeing three mini-movies directed by three of Asia's most inventive directors: Japan's Takashi Miike, Hong Kong's Fruit Chan, and Korea's Chanwook Park. My friend Marcus lent me the movie, informing me that he and his girlfriend were so disturbed by the second story that they were unable to finish it. Intrigued, I checked it out. Now I know a lot of people loved Three: Extremes but as much as I loved elements in all three stories, I can't say I loved them. The first and third entries felt more like experimental films and, while I enjoy movies that "think outside the box", they must maintain a grounded narrative if I'm to buy into the world created. The first story, Takashi Miike's box tells the story of a woman, a novelist, who is haunted by the recurring dream that she is being buried alive. We learn that, when she was a young girl, she was part of a circus act along with her sister and father. Part of the act required the two girls to fold themselves into separate boxes which would be closed and latched shut...Bet you know where this is going. Well, think again. Halfway through this twisted tale, I wondered whether Marcus had meant to say he wasn't able to make it through this one instead. Lots of nice directorial touches but, in the end, I felt the story was marred by a, frankly, silly conclusion. Incidentally, Takashi Miike's Fudoh: The New Generation is one of my favorite Japanese movie and a film that made James Tichenor vow to never attend one of my home screenings again. Of course, if I had screened the second movie, Fruit Chan's Dumpling for James, he probably still wouldn't be talking to me. Of the three, this one is the most straightforward and traditional in its narrative although it doesn't really go anywhere in the end. Still, this one gets the prize for the most shocking and disturbing premise of any horror movie I've ever watched. The last entry, Cut, is by Chanwook Park, director of my favorite Korean movie, Oldboy. This one has a great premise: a hotshot director and his wife are held hostage by an extra who appeared in every one of his movies. Again, great premise but once they break through the 4th wall, it feels like an exercise in fimmaking. Inventive but ultimately unsatisfying for this viewer.
Thought I'd try something new in this entry and actually respond to some of the comments to my last blog -
"Can you comment on the video game Stargate SG-1 : The Alliance?"
Sorry, I can't. I've never played the game and really don't know anything about it.
"You need to try Tim Tams though. Not the caramel, double choc etc varieties. The original!!!"
I have. They are one tasty cookie. Watch for Tim Tam ice cream in a future entry.
"Joe, why do you write this blog? Is it part of your job? Do you write it because you love to entertain the fans (or maybe yourself)? Is it something you really want to do?"
I write this blog because I enjoy it. It is definitely not part of my job. In fact, I was the one who approached Darren about writing a blog for Gateworld in the first place.
"oh, and for the anime that you missed on the top 20 - Paranoia Agent, Gungrave, Samurai shamploo, Gits 2the movie"
Liked Paranoia Agent a lot but it didn't make my top 20. Also liked GITS 2 a lot, but I was only listing series as opposed to movies (otherwise Grave of the Fireflies would have been up there). I'm waiting for the final volume of Champloo to come out before I start. After Geck, Gungrave is up on deck.
"Yes, well, as Joe and the other producers have obviously determined, most fans are not happy with Cameron leading."
I think we have differing opinions on how to define "most fans".
"The conduct on Joe's blog has devolved right along with Joe's own personal internet conduct. As he treats fans from all quarters with a growing amount of contempt and disrespect the people who post these comments do the same to both Joe and the others who comment here. Reap what is sown..."
I thank Cardinal Vanderplaankt for coming by and offering me the theology lesson although I don't really know what he's referring to by "Joe's own personal internet conduct". I try to treat all fans in a respectful manner. Even the dolt who posted the aforementioned comment.
"Are we even going to see any Unas? Do the Ori want other races (like the Unas) to worship them aswell? Would the Unas even understand Ascension? Can they ascend?"
Not in the near future. Sure. Probably not. Very unlikely.
Well, that's it for now. I'll try to check in after I finish the third script.
Executive producer Joseph Mallozzi has been on the SG-1 writing
staff since Season Four. Along with writing partner Paul Mullie, Joe has
written such fan favorite episodes as "Window of Opportunity," "Summit,"
and "Lockdown." Joe lives in Vancouver, British Columbia. 
Yea, I have the first comment!
Let the whining commence, Stargate fans!
Joe, I believe you should play as hard as you work - you work hard so don't feel bad about R and R.
Although, I am curious has to how "stages of sleep" are being used in the episode. Can I borrow that puddle jumper when you get it back to check it out?
And did you know they actually sell Tim Tam ice cream in Australia? And Tim Tam Ice Chocolate from some coffee shops - yes trying to bribe you come donw under with chocolate.
Wow...you've been quite busy.
Interesting info regarding the spoiler snippets. One of them has me worried though...for Counter-Strike: "a significant loss at episode's end." I still am weeping the loss of Fraiser so I hope we're not talking about a major character. Feel free to alleviate my panicked condition with words of comfort and joy...comfort and joy... :)
Okay...I guess that's enough whining for the moment. ;)
I'm delighted to see you make an ice cream reference...does this mean recipes are not far behind? I think I speak for a lot of people when I say we'd buy the book with your choice ice cream recipes.
Thanks for stopping by! Feliz Navidad y Prospero Ano Nuevo!!!
:D
Mary Beth
Joe said:
I thank Cardinal Vanderplaankt for coming by and offering me the theology lesson although I don't really know what he's referring to by "Joe's own personal internet conduct". I try to treat all fans in a respectful manner. Even the dolt who posted the aforementioned comment.
Just a wild guess, but I'm pretty sure he's referring to responses just like this one. Good try on the respect part. I'm sure you'll get it eventually. The fourth graders I teach don't really get it right away either.
I wonder who actually started this "lack of respect" business. Because if the fans started, then Joe is just responding in kind, which is exactly what I would've done.
Yeah Joe! Why give fans respect if they don't give you any?
PG15
I really love reading your blog, it gives me a good chuckle every week or so.
I know there is a growing contigent discussing "Captain Kirking". Any response on Romance of The Week Stuff?
You deserve a break. You all do. You do such a fab job! And the praise'll keep coming if you tell me who dies! ;)
Thank You!
Oh, please...oh, please...oh, please...no more major deaths...
Please, please, please...confirm that it isn't a major character that will become fertilizer in season ten?
Em
Joe said:
"I think we have differing opinions on how to define "most fans".
"The conduct on Joe's blog has devolved right along with Joe's own personal internet conduct. As he treats fans from all quarters with a growing amount of contempt and disrespect the people who post these comments do the same to both Joe and the others who comment here. Reap what is sown..."
I thank Cardinal Vanderplaankt for coming by and offering me the theology lesson although I don't really know what he's referring to by "Joe's own personal internet conduct". I try to treat all fans in a respectful manner. Even the dolt who posted the aforementioned comment."
You just don't get it do you Joe.
Are you and Paul Mullie going to write all the scripts for season 10?
Joe,
Don't listen to the people with the whiny attitude about your supposed lack of respect or your 'personal internet conduct'. Frankly I think you have taken way to much crap from people who have nothing better to do then sit around and &!^ch. I read your blog for the express purpose of getting a feel for what makes you and the others involved in Stargate tick. Just be you... some of us like it.
So, regarding the reasons for SG1 wanting Vala... Did she find another set of bracelets? I truly will be surprised and impressed if a believable reason has been written into the script.
Hats
Well, I think you guys are doing a great job. I'm very interested to see how Vala becomes a full-time member of SG-1 next season.
Keep it up! There's a bunch of fans that're really liking Cameron Mitchell and the way things have gone with the Orii.
Thanks!
Hey there! I'm looking forward to the second half of season nine! Hope that Vala is a great addition to season ten. I loved her this season.
Congratulations to the Atlantis Visual effects team for winning a Gemini!
Joe said:
I thank Cardinal Vanderplaankt for coming by and offering me the theology lesson although I don't really know what he's referring to by "Joe's own personal internet conduct". I try to treat all fans in a respectful manner. Even the dolt who posted the aforementioned comment."
Hahahaha, nice one Joe! :D And also a big lol at the people whinging about respect over the Internet. "Oh noes, he r insulting me over teh interweb! I am offended by teh evil producer omg!"
And 'personal internet conduct'? Do you happen to live in the fairy care-bear land where the sun smiles as it talks to you and everyone spontaneously bursts into song and dance about how wonderful the day has been?
I hope you realise that this is JOE's BLOG. Not your's - the stargate fan who sits at their computer and heaps criticism upon the TPTB (alot of the time unjustified, or just completely absurd). You don't own the blog, stop acting like you do. And if you have 'issues' with Joe 'disrespecting the fans' :rolleyes: - why don't you stop reading the bloody thing?? Or would just prefer to keep posting here to stir up trouble?
So keep up the blog Joe. Don't hesitate to throw a few barbs at the fans (god knows they deserve it) and continue to have a good chuckle at the 'silly people on the internet' :)
Your "internet conduct" is just fine from what I've observed (which is a considerable amount). Not bowing down to idiotic comments made by idiotic fans (there'll always be some), only earns you more respect on my part. I think perhaps some people are unaware of sarcasm or sattire.
As for the anime, I may bhave missed it but I don't think you've yet watched:
Ghost in the Shell: Standalone Complex.
I've said this several times before, and I'll continue to say it until you watch it, but it's a MUST SEE.
I'm sorry, but I don't think that common courtesy is too much to ask. And the posts that are "supporting" Joe even here show an astounding lack of class. Do you people really act this way in real life? I sincerely doubt it. Stop using the anonymity of the internet to create a false sense of boldness and bravado. Just try and be civil with one another, yourself included Joe.
Carol
Happy Writings, Joey (you can tell me stop any time, man). I apologize for not being funny, I really do try, but often fail miserably.
Anyway I just wanted to stop in and say how much people actually appreciate your blogging (I know, it's crazy). I always get a good laugh out of your wit, and I'm sure there is somebody else out there who does too. Thanks so much for putting up with all the childish crap people throw at you for speaking your mind and keep it up. We all enjoy the information your give us.
On another note, if you get time to do some light reading, I'd recomend Short Cuts by Ramond Carver, its a collection of short stories but together for a movie. It's a quick read and it won't let you go. It's a little on the dark side of life, but it's well worth the time.
I can't wait for Season Ten, heck, I can't wait for the second half of Season Nine. Thanks again for being the fan's whipping boy, I know I wouldn't have lasted as long.
Happy Festival of Wild Women, Saternalia, Rohatsu, Jesusmas, Alban Arthuan, Inti Raymi, Shabe- Yalda, Ramadan (seven, six and five years ago), Hanukah, Winter Solstice, Yule, and The Long Night. (I think I covered most of them, page me if I missed something.
Hi Joe ,
Sorry to hear you couldnt take your aforementioned trip. I know it can be a pain when you are really looking forward to something and circumstances beyond your control conspire to ruin what you have looked forward to....
I must admit , i am envious that you have time to fit so much in, with work and your ongoing film obsession.How do you do it!!!!
I am wondering if that part of the watching the other films is to help harness your own creative energies....
I will be looking forward to the second ep(SG1) you mentioned if it is on sleep as it is a whole fascinating field of interest (ie the 4 stages of sleep ,REM, alpha waves, theta waves etc,etc) And it lends itself to all sorts of possibilities for story lines.
Well from a far flung island somewhere in the pacific
Thank you for keeping us updated
Thanks for the insight into Season 10. : )
Since you like South Park, have you seen Team America World Police? I am not big on South Park but I did enjoy Team America.
Just in case you don't post again before Christmas. I want to wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
I'm really loving S9 so far, and can't wait for the rest of it. Also looking forward to S10(yay!). No one I know personally has disliked Cameron...I wonder why some people do? Must not like change too much. I'm curious to see how you'll get Vala in there...but in a good way.
I [heart] Vala {----this----} much.
As to the Jim Carrey live action Lupin...I had not heard that rumor, and am undecided on whether to be scared or intrigued. I'll settle for curious. Haha.
Also, about the people complaining about your 'disrespect'...The only 'quarters' from which I've seen you treat 'rudely' are from those quarters that are rude themselves.
And I think that made sense...but my mind is a twisty place, so sorry if it didn't.
Happy Holidays and don't work too hard! Yet. :)
Kim
Oy...before I forget...sorry for taking so much time using the puddle jumper; but then time is relative, or so they say...
I'll just go back in time and return it to you before you write this blog so all should be well and you'll never know the difference.
Mary Beth
P.S. Just to let you know...Season 14 was a smash success. General Samantha Carter...she kept her maiden name for professional purposes...had a rough go getting used to her new 2IC but that gets smoothed out fairly quickly. Teal'c's granddaughter is kidnapped by a Jaffa with a grudge against Ryac but, don't worry, they get her back. As for Daniel? Well after the gate program went public back in Season 12, he went on a speaking tour around the world to discuss his findings in detail. Thankfully, he returned before the end of the season and the whole team was reunited before the earth was attacked by the evil...oh wait. I shouldn't go into too much detail. Needless to say, it was fab.
P.P.S. Also, don't worry about the scratch on the aft of the puddle jumper. I'll get that fixed too before you have a chance to fuss at me for it.
"Well, looks like my time-hopping has been temporarily curtailed by a fan who borrowed my puddle jumper. She promised to get it back for ten minutes before I lent it to her but, alas, I'm still waiting."
I told you that you wouldn't even notice it was/is/will be gone, Mr. Mallozzi! ;-p Make a liar out of me, why don't you?
I brought it back right after watching Shakespeare in Henry V. BTW, the Globe Theater was much smaller than I expected. However, as per your request, I avoided all butterflies (and moths too)! It was fine when *I* left it, though I noticed Jack O'Neill loitering when I was leaving the hanger. He was saying something about a World Series?
Congrats on your team winning TAR Family. FYI, the Linzes are splitting the money--1/2 to their parents, and 1/2 among the siblings, all seven of them (not just the four who raced).
Loved hearing info about the new scripts. I will be anxiously/skeptically/optimistically looking forward to Vala's integration into the permanent cast.
Happy Holidays
Aurora N.
JOE SAID:
With Vala on board for all of season 10, we have to ask ourselves: Why would she want to join Stargate Command? Why would we want her to join Stargate Command? And, of course, do we feel that we can trust her? All of these questions come up in this episode and are answered, temporarily at least.”
Clever – writing the show around, and to accommodate, a character that does not fit the direction – wow something I never thought I would see from what used to be a class act. Are you (TPTB you)seriously bringing in a character that has no place, or seemingly believable purpose, in the SGC and then after–the-fact trying to figure out how to fit her in? Oh wait – you DID already do that with Mitchell and look what a mess that turned into. And no I am not “Cardinal Vanderplaankt” as you so respectfully put it, just another in the long, and growing, line of disappointed fans of the real Stargate SG1.
Jim D.
pssst....JOE. Hey, Joe. Jim isn't in the minority. A little bit of logic would go a long way anymore.
"Even the dolt who posted the aforementioned comment."
Hah! Stick it to em! I think I might love you.
Anyway, congrats on Season 10 and 3... really looking forward to more Mitchell, Vala and the Ori! :D
I'm pretty sure Jim IS in the minority. How do I know? Guess.
PG15
aww i was enjoying the time leaps :D
anonymous said-"I'm pretty sure Jim IS the minority. How do I know? Guess."
I don't think Jim is the minority because too many people are complaining more than ever. I'm curious why the Sci-Fi Channel isn't playing the repeats as usual? Could it be because the episodes aren't playing that well on their return visits?
I'm not real happy with the changes myself. Not because they're changes, but because they're done so haphazardly and without regard to the older players in the SG-1 show. I've always loved Jack O'Neill and he's literally dead for all we know about him now.
I used to relish new SG-1 episodes, now I'm just dreading what damage they'll do the characters and the history of the show. Can't believe I'm thinking that.
Personally, I don't think Jim is in any sort of categorized "minority."
Though it's pretty difficult to properly DEFINE minority in this (or any other) wacked out fandom. :S
I DO hope there's a logical/reasonable explanation as to why Vala (a) would want to be on SG-1 and (b) will be trusted. She's got potential to be a great addition to the show next season, but I sincerely hope bracelets aren't the answer ever, ever again.
Joe,
Is it common in your business for people to pass such conclusive judgment with only the sketchiest of details?
I think it's fair to say that a very large number of fans are patiently awaiting the next season, and the opportunity to see how things will occur. Despite what the vocal minority would have us believe.
Hatch
..I used to relish new SG-1 episodes, now I'm just dreading what damage they'll do the characters and the history of the show. Can't believe I'm thinking that...
Really sorry to hear this - as I'm feeling the exact opposite as am still buzzing from the S9 1-5 arc.
"Clever – writing the show around, and to accommodate, a character that does not fit the direction"
Sadly I have to agree, however it would be far less noticeable and much more enjoyable even if they did so, had you not known that person would be written into the show. As if you didn't you would be more like "omg they've put her into the show" while your watching rather than "that is such a lame excuse for having her on the team".
So to conclude- STOP BLAMING THE WRITERS FOR THE FANS PROBLEMS!
I know this is random...but i watched prototype yesterday and i thought it was the best episode of season 9 yet...is that saying something now that the story line had to do with the Goa'uld and that Cameron doesn't really have much of a role in the episode. Also i think Daniel Jackson portrayed a bit of Jacks character which was really cool to have a cynicle, sarcastic, perdonality we all love on our Stargate SG1 screens..anybody with me?
Question joe
Is peter Deluise still creative consultant/producer?
i have just been reading every ones comments, and i have to say....Jim...whats ur problem? and Joe...cool use of language on ur blog!
Yes i agree whith chloe up the top you need to come visit Australia next year and try our wide range of tim tam and Vegimite verieties.
(and the crocodile hunter...well lets just say we don't techniquly own him:P)
I know this is random...but i watched prototype yesterday and i thought it was the best episode of season 9 yet...is that saying something now that the story line had to do with the Goa'uld and that Cameron doesn't really have much of a role in the episode. Also i think Daniel Jackson portrayed a bit of Jacks character which was really cool to have a cynicle, sarcastic, perdonality we all love on our Stargate SG1 screens..anybody with me?
Overally it probably was the best, I kind of liked parts of Origin too though (mostly the parts with the Doci guy and that city place- Would be cool to infiltrate that place and assasinate all the Priors that wander around lol (i know wishful thinking)
Joe,
Thanks for you blogs. They're always interesting, if not controversial. Me? I'm just looking forward to seeing more Mitchell in the second half of the season. Babylon was the best ep so far, and I can't wait to learn more about Mitchell. Whenever he's onscreen, the show comes to life, imo.
someone said, " I've always loved Jack O'Neill and he's literally dead for all we know about him now. "
I've restrained from writing for a long time, but here it is ... this is a television show. I was thrilled that TPTB and RDA were both able to compromise and work around scheduling difficulties to keep O'Neill on the show as long as he was. After all, RDA is a real person, with a real life, and he shouldn't be expected to sublmiate his own personal life for a job. A fun job, and one that we all enjoy the results of, but a job nonetheless. Taking care of his daughter should be a priority, and I applaud him for putting it first.
Hatch said, "I think it's fair to say that a very large number of fans are patiently awaiting the next season, and the opportunity to see how things will occur. Despite what the vocal minority would have us believe." and I agree. There's a reason why you guys are the writers, producers, show runners, etc ... you know what you're doing. You're never going to please everyone ... but you're doing a good job. And I have to say I enjoy the blogs for the same reason I like the commentaries and special features on the DVDs ... it's a chance to get a behing-the-scenes look at our favorite show!
Spoilers sound good so far :)
You wrote: "Counter-Strike, which I believe has been slotted for the 7 spot. Lots of good emotion in this one, bonding, and a significant loss at episode's end."
Is the good emotion & bonding going to happen between SG1 or SG1 and the guest star of the week? I really, really hope it's going to be the just the team, because that's who I enjoy watching.
To anonymous posted at 7:03am (too long to quote). Before you get told by all the fans who no more than you or I do......well said.
oops sorry..."know". I'm sure to be ridiculed for that.
hey Joe ~
Happy Holidays :)
Look, the only reason this blog exists is because Joe has this apparently overwhelming need to feel like the guy "in the know". That he's finally let it out that he asked to do the blog just proves the assertion that he craves the attention he gets by coming online. I understand why you all rally around him; you're all the beneficiaries of Joe's need to feel more importatn than all of you. As he tosses out tibits for the fans he allows himself to indulge his inflated sense of self. That's something he obviously doesn't get to do at work, given the bitter undertone to his writing when talking about how Brad Wright and Rob Cooper oversee him and all the other members of the production staff. He's a small man on the totem of Stargate, except when he comes online. If all of this sounds petty and small-minded, well, it is. But that's what we're dealing with. However, that's not nearly as troubling as the willingness some people show to allow themselves to be manipulated. Being a sycophant is nothing to be proud of, no matter how big a group of toadies you are.
I don't know what you're all on about with Vala. THere's not a doubt in my mind they'll come up with a way to write her in. They came up with a huge contrivance to get Carter out of command of SG1. This is a cake walk comparatively.
Dear PTB (via Joe): Please get a new neuro/psych consultant to help with the stages of sleep and psych eval details. Whatever you do, please don't use whoever or whatever resource was responsible for the "we only use 5-10% of our brains" in Fifth Race and Prototype, or the "DID=schizophrenia" gaffe in The Tok'Ra. Eek!
cheers,
DEM
Totally off topic here - and this will get all the rabid minions of Sam after me - but how's this for a difference in the behavior and maturity levels of the fans?
When Vala and Carolyn appeared this season we heard howls of "slut", "vulgar", "cleavage", "over sexed" etc etc - much basing of the characters, much nashing of teeth at how Stargate had lost it's family values and descended to SEX to sell itself yadda.
A short while ago 'Grace Under Pressure' aired in the UK with Sam appearing in McKay's hallucination. I'm looking at screen caps right now (and I've also watched the download so I know the story line people).
I have to ask everyone these questions:
Has there been a massive outcry about Sam in the plunging pink top with her new mother's assets up front and center?
Has there been a massive bemoaning that Sam is leaning forward most of the time so we get a good look at them in almost every shot?
Has anyone said how disgusted they are that Sam then appears wet and in a blue bra with said assets on prominent display? (Surprised Amanda herself hasn't told us in one of her many interviews about how cold the water was, we heard all about the goo and being semi naked).
Has anyone moaned about Atlantis descending to SEX to sel litself and loosing it's family values?
Now before you all go ranting about Amanda just having given birth and still breast feeding (which I know), did anyone realize that Lexa Doig was still breast feeding in the first month or so of SG1 and hence really couldn't help having a cleavage as well? Or that the character of Vala was dressed that way in order to throw people off balance when dealing with her?
Oh, but that is different isn't it?
Interesting how mature the two groups of fans really are isn't it?
I have to agree with the above poster on AT's attire and posture in GUP. I found the cleavage shots cringe-worthy. There is a double standard in this fandom. AT can dress in nothing but an American flag and be labeled beautiful while Vala in leather is somehow degenerate. Yeah, right.
Joe, you can bring your dogs to San Francisco. Everyone who owns a dog here takes them EVERYWHERE: shop, supermarket, restaurant, you name it. It's an aggressively dog-friendly town, just so you know...
what's not to get idiots. Amanda Tapping IS beautiful. The others are dogs. Deal with it.
"Has anyone moaned about Atlantis descending to SEX to sel litself and loosing it's family values?"
Actually, numerous posters have decried Sam's fanboi service in the latest episode, but you must have glossed over that fact. Plenty of posters are also upset about how John Sheppard is becoming a man-whore and little else, but you don't seem to care about that either.
Beyond that, your comparison between Vala and Sam is weak. Try it again when Sam spouts sex talk in most of her lines and wears a tight leather outfit for six episodes in a row. Then maybe I'll play your little game.
Vala fans are more mature than Sam fans, yet you start off by referring to them as minions? Thanks, I needed a laugh today.
AT can shove all those "back to her roots", "she's not just the girl", and "not a space sex kitten" comments where the sun don't shine. She plays whore just like the rest of 'em.
All of this fighting back and forth between fangroups misses the point completely. Instead of being pissed at each other, trying being pissed at Joe and the other morons in charge who are writing this crap. That none of them see anything wrong with the tits and ass show they've created for BOTH shows this year, and that they continue to write more of it each week is turning this franchise into a joke. The gal above has it right, all you people love supporting Joe b/c you feel indebted to him, but the fact of the matter is that the quality of Stargate has gone markedly down this year. Ratings are down this year, sometimes by as much as .4 of a point. I never would have guessed that RDA, Mike Greenburg, and Gecko had this much say in the product being put forth, but the reduction of the characters and plotlines to nothing more than sexual tittlation and sci-fi cliches has proven me wrong. Stop fighting with each other and start telling TPTB that you're unhappy with the crap they're peddling these days.
Sam Fans are Hypocrites said...
AT can shove all those "back to her roots", "she's not just the girl", and "not a space sex kitten" comments where the sun don't shine. She plays whore just like the rest of 'em.
Hmm.
Remember how I commmented, Joe, that some people have a problem differentiating between a figment of McKay's deluded subconscious mind and the actual character Samantha Carter?
As in not understanding that Amanda played a completely different character on Grace Under Pressure than she plays on Stargate SG-1 in that one is not a real person and the other one is? Well "real" as far as fictional characters go...
Being right most of the time is getting to be awfully exhausting.
Mary Beth
And THIS, Joe, is why we love how you make fun of some of us.
Frankly, some of us deserve it...badly.
PG15
Yeah, so I'm one of those Sam/AT minions (Demandas, if you will) who doesn't appreciate the constant sexing up of any of the actors - including AT.
And I agree that Hallucination!Sam was just that - a hallucination. But it's still associated with Tapping, and it's still an opportunity for TPTB to get the women on their series in barely-there attire at the expense of a story, an ep or a group of eps.
It's STILL aiming toward a certain demographic, and no matter how "fun" it is for Claudia Black or Amanda Tapping (their two most controversial actresses) to play into these storylines and to play them WELL (during and after pregnancy, no less), it's still very, very disturbing.
I think all of the women are gorgeous, and they've obviously got some noggins on them. Can we get back to that, please? A little more brains, a little less boobs.
I'm not expecting a new line of Stargate moomoos or anything. Just some class.
did anyone realize that Lexa Doig was still breast feeding in the first month or so of SG1 and hence really couldn't help having a cleavage as well?
------
Lexa Doig's daughter was over 6 months old when the first episodes Lam was in were filmed. I think it might be iffy that there was still breast feeding going on.
Not to get smart or anything, but the "normal" time for breast feeding is about one year. My granddaghter was born one week after Lexa's daughter and breast fed for the doctor recommended time of one year. The LaLeche League for breast feeding also recommends one year
Nadolig Llawen (Merry Christmas) and Happy New Year Joe and if you need any welsh people for 'Gwalchmei' I'd be happy to fly to Vancouver lol.
"A little more brains, a little less boobs."
Ha, dream on. As long as there are kids like PG15 (who seems to be about 15 yrs old) that will accept and defend whatever shit gets peddled as "quality", TPTB's new ratings stunts will keep happening with more and more frequency. No idea what to write? Just make AT strip....that'll please everyone. And for next week there's always the "I bet Rachel could do a split in a G-string." And there's the "next week we'll do a super mondo cool crossover....Amanda on Rachel action, sweet."
Stargate was successful before because it didn't have to resort to skimpy dress and double entendres to draw fans....the writing used to be good enough for that. Joe and the other producers know it too, they're just embarrassed and ashamed at the lack of control they have over their product these days. My God, do people really think that they've been planning on adding Vala all along--not a chance. If they knew beforehand that they were gonna get that load of dead weight tied to their ass for the rest of the series' life they never would have made the character so cliched. They pimp her and talk here up b/c if they admitted their error they'd have to fix it, and there's no way for them to do it with Skiffy calling hte shots. Space baby indeed. There's also the whole Ben Browder mess and the ridiculous co-command issue. Fact is Mitchell has command of SG-1. He just shouldn't. TPTB wrote a magnificently contrived storyline for Carter to get her out of command. Why? It's anybody's guess, and everyone's got some good ones. My money's on Skiffy, Browder's "requirements" for joining the cast, and TPTB's belief that a woman can't be the star of the show. Apparently they think a Jack clone can though.
mmmm Amanda on Rachel action... (drool). And include Torri and Claudia - who needs the male stars? :D
Well, I'm personally betting on Mitchell being the one who gets shafted in order to accomodate Vala. The big three are, well, the big three. They're the ones who make episodes happen. Mitchell, however, already has little enough to contribute, but once she returns he'll hardly be able to get any kind of dialogue or development. I sincerely wonder whether or not TPTB are happy they hired Ben Browder now that they've got to fit Vala into the show. Poor guy doesn't stand a chance. Atlantis already has characters who the writers refuse to make time for. I'd hate to see the same happen on SG-1.
doh, and Lexa too!
110 % stargate sg-1 and stargate atlantis fan. Is there a place to post ideas for episodes.
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I would really like to see a third installment of the Ashen.
"the dolt who posted the aforementioned comment"- brilliant
Actually, I'm 17, going on 18 in about 10 days. I feel so old, you know what I mean Anonymous?
And frankly, I don't know why we can't have (as others have put it) "brains" AND "boobs", something for our minds and something for that other part of the body which men value.
PG15
"Is there a place to post ideas for episodes."
Only if you plan to attack Joe, TPTB, other Stargate fans, or the actors themselves.
God, the comments in this blog are even sadder than usual.
Anonymous said...
"i have just been reading every ones comments, and i have to say....Jim...whats ur problem?"
I have no problem - what's yours?
the anonymous tags seem to be for those that are insecure in their statements . . .
Jim
'I said' posted:
//When Vala and Carolyn appeared this season we heard howls of "slut", "vulgar", "cleavage", "over sexed" etc etc - much basing of the characters, much nashing of teeth at how Stargate had lost it's family values and descended to SEX to sell itself yadda.
A short while ago 'Grace Under Pressure' aired in the UK with Sam appearing in McKay's hallucination. I'm looking at screen caps right now (and I've also watched the download so I know the story line people).
I have to ask everyone these questions:
Has there been a massive outcry about Sam in the plunging pink top with her new mother's assets up front and center?//
i didn't like seeing a sexed up version of sam either, but it wasn't the *real* sam. just stargate sexing up the show. again.
//Has there been a massive bemoaning that Sam is leaning forward most of the time so we get a good look at them in almost every shot? //
i've seen this ep and i didn't notice. okay, i'm a woman, but i didn't notice her leaning forward. what i *did* notice was that she had a jacket on for 99.9 percent of the hallucination.
//Has anyone said how disgusted they are that Sam then appears wet and in a blue bra with said assets on prominent display?//
i thought it looked like a bathing suit top. and it wasn't sizes too small to push them out and such.
i guess it just didn't make an impression on me one way or the other, because if it 'had' been over-the-top, i sure as heck would have been screaming 'don't do this to sam!'.
//Now before you all go ranting about Amanda just having given birth and still breast feeding (which I know), did anyone realize that Lexa Doig was still breast feeding in the first month or so of SG1 and hence really couldn't help having a cleavage as well?//
lexa was playing a 'real' version of dr lam. i don't know many female doctors that show off their breasts, especially while on duty, especially on a military base. it was a choice the writers and wardrobe department made to make a statement. *sexupsexupsexup*
dr lam = real version.
sam in 'grace under pressure = fake version.
//Or that the character of Vala was dressed that way in order to throw people off balance when dealing with her?//
i thought she was dressed that way (which was 99 percent of the time) to sex up the show?
//Oh, but that is different isn't it?//
yes.
vala = real version.
sam in 'grace under pressure' = fake version.
//Interesting how mature the two groups of fans really are isn't it?//
i'm not really looking at it as mature/immature as much as looking at the realities of the situations these CHARACTERS were in. vala and dr lam weren't being played as hallucinations at any point in their appearances. what you saw (or what you didn't see on them) were to be played as real and normal for them. the sam in 'grace under pressure' was to be played as an hallucination that came from a guys' mind, and one that had fantasized about this certain woman for years.
now, ask me if it offended me? no, it didn't. now ask me if i enjoyed it? no, i'm a sam/jack shipper and didn't enjoy *any* verion of *any* sam kissing another man. now ask me if it was 'needed' to the script or show? no. and that's the gist of what's making many fans' jerk reactions about the sexing up of sg1 and atlantis this season.
so to answer your question 'i said': there *is* a difference between vala and lam and hallucination sam. two were being played as real, and one as fake.
sally :)
People (I'm guessing mainly women, but I could be wrong) seem to have a lot of problems with the female characters/actors on this show for lowering the standards (ie, showing their assests off at every oppurtunity :rolleyes:), but its ironic to see the same people having no problem with the male characters/actors doing the same thing.
Quite frankly, the character of daniel jackson is rather degrading to men. Why? Because apparently TPTB feel that they can't have one of their male leads looking like a geek. Instead they have to buff him up, cut his hair in a military style, give him a P-90 instead of a pistol and generally make him 'daniel jackson: Action Hero'. Because men have to be the big strong ones. We can't have a geeky looking guy saving the earth each week, because men need big muscles and big guns to do that. Gone is the shaggy haired, glasses wearing archeologist, and enter the beefy, action guy (who does a bit of archeology on the side). It pisses me off to see male characters reduced to that (thank god for McKay, though I kinda worry for him in Atlantis season 7...)
So lets get rid of daniel. Mitchell can replace him (though his character suffers from similiar problems, but not nearly as much as daniel), bring Vala in and have Carter, Teal'c, Vala and Mitchell make up the team. The show survived and thrived without daniel before (it rated good enough for a 7th season) so I'm sure it can do it again.
So less Action Jackson and more of the kick arse Stargate Ladies (Carter, Vala, Weir, Teyla) kthx.
I agree with what i <3 the stargate ladies said... above.
The original Daniel was watchable he helped make the show what it was for 5 years - the ascended/descended Daniel is, IMHO, another caricature (albeit he is a male sci-fi caricature)that is almost unbearable to watch now. He resembles almost nothing of the Daniel that helped make the show what it was - a darn good, respected, drama. Now he just falls into that same tacky category with Vala (not to say that Teal'c doesn't also fall into that tacky category - does the guy, or the Bridge wardrobe department, own a shirt with sleeves - ok we know you are cut and buff yada, yada, yada, get over it boys and move on already). I guess what that boils down to with both the sexing up of men and women and how many fans don't grasp onto it the way TPTB do is that many of the fans are not that shallow - even though TPTB obviously think we are.
The change in Daniel started in S7 and with the loss of the original Daniel, the continued degrading of Sam, the continued wallpapering of Teal'c, who seems to be having an identity crisis (am I human or am I Jaffa) the addition of Mitchell, a character that seemingly has no plausible reason to be on SG1 at this point in time, the addition of Vala, a cheap, sleazy, selfish, lying thief who also seemingly has no purpose at the SGC (other than to continue to make the SGC look stupid as she did in certain of the first 5 eps, or to make Daniel look like her boytoy as she did in almost all of the eps she has been in) Stargate has become another in a long, and disrespected, line of everyday, mediocore, humdrum sci-fi nonesense with no discernable sign of the greatness it once had pre-season 7.
Terry B.
someone said: The original Daniel was watchable he helped make the show what it was for 5 years - the ascended/descended Daniel is, IMHO, another caricature (albeit he is a male sci-fi caricature)that is almost unbearable to watch now.//
well, a person *does* change from their life events (which is how all the characters should be written), but what i *don't* like is him suddenly being 'sexy daniel who doesn't need his glasses and wears tight leather', all for the sake of 'benefitting' the plot.
i've seen screen caps of an upcoming ep that has the entire sg1 team in leather. why? can't go to another planet without looking like firefargate sg1?
sally :)
Your all so fustratingly thick!
I'd go into more detail but it's so obvious none of you would be able to understand anything anyone else says that it would be a complete waste of my time, more so than this is as it would take longer to type.
Anonymous said...
Your all so fustratingly thick!
I'd go into more detail but it's so obvious none of you would be able to understand anything anyone else says that it would be a complete waste of my time, more so than this is as it would take longer to type. //
no please tell us, how are we thick???
sally :)
Good God, the comments in here are just ridiculous.
Joe, and the rest of TPTB, just keep doing what your doing. And keep updating this, please, some of us do enjoy these behind the scenes looks at how the show happens.
Hatcheter
majorsal, how about we wait for the episode to air, and hopefully THEN we'll get a reason for why they're all in leather.
No offense to you, or any other person in particular, but this "I hate this development which I've only seen snippets of and won't shut up about even though I don't have the full, big picture" syndrome really REALLY grates.
PG15
This my first comment ever Joe, and from the looks of things it will be my last comment too. I've dedicatedly tuned in to stargate for nine years I am both disappointed and hurt by the way the characters of Jack and Sam have been treated this year. RDA left the show but Jack is just gone, poof like he never existed. Sam and Tealc and Daniel don't even mention him. And Sam was being groomed for command since the early seasons where it was always a big deal when she got to lead the team like in the indian episode. Then she gets command of the team but you take it away this year. Things are rough this year with the new people but you made them a lot harder than they should have been with these big big mistakes. Maybe you can fix them. But my interest in the show is dying a slowly with each one of them.
Sincerely,
Rachel Vinalm
no please tell us, how are we thick???
How you are thick differs from person to person. So perhaps you would like me to comment directly on how you are thick, but other people do so, and they themselves are thick for doing so. So in order to excuse myself from that which i accuse you all of, I must be as brief as possible.
and anonymous, always anonymous
PG15
Wasn't the fact that Sam got to lead in the Indian episode due to the fact that RDA's daughter was born during filming and he wanted some time off... so they wrote the episode in a way they could go Jack-lite?
I don't think she's been groomed from the beginning for command. If she was intended that way, they wouldn't have made her the top-notch scientist she is. Command is a different track. And she would have been driven by strategy and military methodology not science.
I believe the TPTB tended to let her fall into that because RDA wanted less and less of commitment and she was the only other soldier on SG-1. You can't have an alien run the team, we're not that advanced yet, especially not U.S. military. And civilian Daniel couldn't lead the team either, even though by nature and former archeological organizing abilities and his extensive studies, he shows the most leadership ability, authority and charisma after Jack, Mitchell, Hammond, and Landry.
Holy man, some people are *crazy*.
Anyway, cheers on GUP, I thought it was great. Lassie!Whale was *awesome*.
To comment on previous post: I'm female, and a big feminazicommiepinkoliberal, and I can honestly say that none of the main Stargate females have ever bothered me by being seductively dressed. Maybe I've been desensitized, or maybe, just maybe it is a real reflection on the fact that sex appeal is becoming more mainstream and it's harder to find clothes that aren't made to promote, and even advertise sexuality. Unless you want the girl-folk in frocks or leg warmers, the clothes have to be a representation of what's on sale in department stores. It's part of what makes the juxtaposition of the "real world" and the "sci-fi" world so real.
Also, I take mild offense to people who would call me a toady for not falling in line with their opinions on a show. Yeah, I have my grievances with Stargate, but I'm a viewer and as much as I may love it, I don't own the franchise. You want to have "JACK&SAM 4 EVARRRR!", or "JONAS TO THE MAXX" read some fanfic. It's not your show, and you really can't change things, so stop kvetching and try to enjoy it. If you can't enjoy, then Just. Stop. Watching. Simple as that. You won't have things to winge about, and us toadies can enjoy the silence.
< /lecture >
and anonymous, always anonymous
Even if I were to register, I'd still be anonymous- unless that's been taken as a Blogger name, then maybe I'd choose Nothing.
ÜberSG-1Fan said... Remember how I commmented, Joe, that some people have a problem differentiating between a figment of McKay's deluded subconscious mind and the actual character Samantha Carter?
As opposed to those people who have a problem differentiating between between Sam's deluded fantasy kiss in her subconscious mind in Grace and the actual character Jack O'Neill?
Joe, on behalf of the vast majority of stargate fans I would like to apologise for the immaturity that is unfortunately becoming so common in fandom these days. Some fans seem to think they are gods that TPTB must worship and obey...
Thanks for the show
Don
I read these comments alot and the one thing I can't figure out is: TPTB- who/what is it?
Forgive me if it's a form of blasphemy for not knowing.
Is anyone else worried about the S10 episode "Counter-Strike"?
I can't help but envision the team running around 'pwning n00bs', saying 'lol' all the time, and exclaiming 'wtf?' whenever something doesn't go quite right.
No? I'm on my own then :(
lol, the thought did cross my mind, but yeah you are on your own. You forgot that everyone would be camping in on buildings using Sniper rifles. (the main reason i prefer Natural selection.
Mr. M.
Just stopping by to wish you and your family a wonderful Holiday season. My husband and I both enjoy your blog and your Q&A thread, and believe it or not, some of us really DO enjoy SG1 and SGA! *LOL*
Is anyone else worried about the S10 episode "Counter-Strike"?
I can't help but envision the team running around 'pwning n00bs', saying 'lol' all the time, and exclaiming 'wtf?' whenever something doesn't go quite right.
No? I'm on my own then :(
lol, I had a similiar thought. I bet the 'significant loss' JM was talking about is the admins banning AWP's from the server :D
partylikeits1984 said: Unless you want the girl-folk in frocks or leg warmers, the clothes have to be a representation of what's on sale in department stores.
The USAF shops in department stores now? Who knew?! Also, exclude the middle much?
anon 12:44 am said: Wasn't the fact that Sam got to lead in the [Salish] episode due to the fact that RDA's daughter was born during filming and he wanted some time off... so they wrote the episode in a way they could go Jack-lite?
And we use the term 'wrote' loosely. Heh. I just happened to watch that ep 2 nights ago and the hasty re-write of that ep is glaringly obvious by Act III. That aside, Carter commanded a number of SG-1 missions over S7-8. Whether or not the writers foresaw that in S1 is irrelevant, really, as is the fact that 'Science' and 'Command' are different career tracks in the real AF. First, I doubt that tracks are meant to be taken as Unwavering Restrictive Dictates of God; second, as women in the USAF aren't allowed frontline ground combat (AFAIK), real-life tracking/qualifying practices certainly don't strictly apply to the SGC.
Leaving aside my personal opinion about whether/how Carter got shafted, the team just feels unbalanced and not well-rounded to me. As best as I can express it, it's as if there are 4 people occupying 3 character functions.
DEM
p.s. I should have said Carter [frequently had command during] S6-8.
Hey Joe,
I just heard on Attack of the Show that Arrested Development might get picked up by another network for future seasons.
My problem isn't with Carter not having command. It's with everyone else. Daniel and Teal'c should be clamoring for her to lead....just like they were all the way back in season three. Jack actually GAVE AWAY her command when he promised Mitchell (who has more time in grade) a place on the team. Forget Jack's whole spiel to Col. Vaselov in Lockdown, I can't fathom that Jack would to that to his team and to his friends. Then there's Landry and Hammond and the President and the entire US Airforce, all of whom are apparently the biggest collection of idiots and dolts ever assembled. The entire command structure is manipulated into looking like morons for putting a flyboy with no gate travel experience in charge of the world's frontline exploration unit. The idiocy of it is mindboggling.
So forget about whatever your feelings are for Carter for a moment. The simple fact is that having Cam Mitchell in command of SG-1 is the biggest farce ever put forth in the stargate universe. No one looks good as a result, Cam least of all. He's got command, but now he's got the gall to think he's actually qualified to lead this team? To lead Teal'c against the Goauld or to lead Daniel against the Ori? To tell Carter what needs to be done? My God, the man is beyond arrogant...he's delusional. And so are fans who think this is rational development of the story. It's the biggest mistake in plotting the show has ever made, and until it's fixed the entire show is a joke.
The bottom line is soldiers know who to follow when it gets messy in the field, regardless of who has official command. And if Carter was standing next to Mitchell they'd be asking her what to do, not him. And it wouldn't be because they disrespect him or don't like him. They just don't want to get killed.
Trevor, RAF
TPTB = The Powers That Be, as in the people in charge.
And go Arrested Development!!
As for Mr. anonymous there...I guess you're right, unless you're a registered poster at Gateworld Forums.
PG15
"Leaving aside my personal opinion about whether/how Carter got shafted, the team just feels unbalanced and not well-rounded to me. As best as I can express it, it's as if there are 4 people occupying 3 character functions."
Lots of fans have noticed how SG1 doesn't really feel like a team anymore. And it isn't just the new characters shaking things up; Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c seem like strangers to each other now. Where did the team go? Was Jack the only thing holding them together? :(
Trevor,
I don't always agree with you but you do make some good points. The show isn't quite as accurate as it once was as far as the AF is concerned. But the writers and producors aren't getting paid by the AF they are getting there money from Sci-Fi so it's not really a surprise to see 2 major actors from another sci-fi show get writen into the story because they think they can draw fans from another sci-fi show.
I'm sure when the episodes were pitched they knew they would lose some fans because of the radical changes but they probably thought the could get most of the Farscapers to cross over. Makes sence, from a monitary stand point. And you do have to remember that this is science FICTION, as in not true. So to see actions that the gov't wouldn't take in real life should surprise you, it may dissapoint you, but don't call the show a "Joke" just becuase it isn't 100% factual. It's entertaining, and thats the whole point.
Ben.
p.s. Joe, the more i watch the shows the more i like them. so far Prototype is my fave from the first half of season 9 (US so i haven't had the chance for more)
Not to get smart or anything, but the "normal" time for breast feeding is about one year. My granddaghter was born one week after Lexa's daughter and breast fed for the doctor recommended time of one year. The LaLeche League for breast feeding also recommends one year
----
Lynn thanks for the answer to my question about it being iffy on the breast feeding with Lexa and Mia.
You response was smart in a good way and appreciated:)
Ben said:
p.s. Joe, the more i watch the shows the more i like them. so far Prototype is my fave from the first half of season 9 (US so i haven't had the chance for more)
I agree, Ben. Prototype was the best episode of the first half. But I'm really dismayed because Joe has mentioned that he didn't like Prototype when it was pitched. Joe said he thought the episode was too complex and backstory-heavy for the audience. That's a really crappy opinion, and it would have been a really crappy reason not to do a good story. At least someone else had the good sense to make the episode anyway.
I think we're getting episodes that many fans don't like because Joe and the other writers are treating us like we're morons. For some inexplicable reason, TPTB want a whole new, much younger audience now. Things don't make sense or get explained anymore because TPTB's desired audience is too young to care about things like continuity or characters' integrity.
And that's all that most of the sincere posters on this blog seem concerned about. The quality of the show isn't what it used to be. There are a variety of reasons for that but first among them is that the writers are treating the audience like we're stupid and incapable of understanding and enjoying complex, well-written stories and characters.
I think the writers have this attitude that because they aren't capable of or are unwilling to write a feasible explanation to the inconsistancies they've created that we as an audience will just accept those inconsistancies and go on contuing to love everything they put out there, no matter what the drek is. Things didn't have to be this way. They could have written any number of logical scenarios to explain any of the changes in the show. Instead they made a conscious decision to ignore logic, damned be anyone who feels otherwise. Now, when fans raise concerns and criticisms, the producers, Joe in particular, dismiss them out of hand with snide comments and an unwillingness to explain the motivations behind the choices made. Right now, the producers seem to hold an enormous amount of contempt for any fan who's disappointed in season nine. That's just petty and low.
John Ngyuen
Trevor is an idiot, Ben ROCKS!
Look, the only reason this blog exists is because Joe has this apparently overwhelming need to feel like the guy "in the know". That he's finally let it out that he asked to do the blog just proves the assertion that he craves the attention he gets by coming online. I understand why you all rally around him; you're all the beneficiaries of Joe's need to feel more importatn than all of you. As he tosses out tibits for the fans he allows himself to indulge his inflated sense of self. That's something he obviously doesn't get to do at work, given the bitter undertone to his writing when talking about how Brad Wright and Rob Cooper oversee him and all the other members of the production staff. He's a small man on the totem of Stargate, except when he comes online. If all of this sounds petty and small-minded, well, it is. But that's what we're dealing with. However, that's not nearly as troubling as the willingness some people show to allow themselves to be manipulated. Being a sycophant is nothing to be proud of, no matter how big a group of toadies you are.
What a very insightful post! However telling these dim bulbs they are merely fodder for the ego that ate Vancouver is pretty much a waste of time as for reasons I can't quite get my head aeound most of them actually seem to think that being used in service of The Ego makes them more important than other fans. Yep, right.
Joe, I'm dissapointed to see some of the reaction that the fans give you. I'd like to take the time to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to write to us.
I know I'm one fan who is very happy with the direction of the new season.
-Don.
Prototype was the best episode of the first half. But I'm really dismayed because Joe has mentioned that he didn't like Prototype when it was pitched. Joe said he thought the episode was too complex and backstory-heavy for the audience. That's a really crappy opinion, and it would have been a really crappy reason not to do a good story. At least someone else had the good sense to make the episode anyway.
I think we're getting episodes that many fans don't like because Joe and the other writers are treating us like we're morons.
As a matter of fact, Joe was quite right with backstory heavy part. I'm new to SG-1, started watching it this season and I'm not familiar almost at all with seasons 1 - 8. And it's not about younger audience, I'm 40, but new to the show. I love Prototype, it's great episode and one of my favourite in the first part of the season. Don't forget that there're people who JUST STARTED watching SG-1 not knowing characters and events from the previous 8 seasons. I suppose there's quite big group of such people like myself.
Honestly, if it were "quite a big group" of such fans then the ratings would have gone up, not down.
i said said:
As opposed to those people who have a problem differentiating between between Sam's deluded fantasy kiss in her subconscious mind in Grace and the actual character Jack O'Neill?
I don't know of any shipper who confuses the Delusion!Jack from Grace with the "real" O'Neill...or Delusion!Teal'c or Delusion!Daniel with their "real life" counterparts for that matter. In fact, the biggest complaint from shippers was that it was a shame that the kiss wasn't real.
But see, all the kiss was was her deep subconscious mind living out a fantasy she couldn't experience in real life just like Jack did in WoO. Well, couldn't experience up to that time, that is.
Mary Beth
Why should the writers cater to fans who just started watching stargate now? It should be up to those new fans to catch up on the whole series themselves. The writers shouldn't have to start simplifying the show just to make it easier for the newbies to understand it.
You've gotta compensate for the people who might've left.
The same goes for the Firefargate Syndrome that majorsal mentioned earlier: People might've left (for whatever reasons), but the network expected the Scapers and/or mainstreamers to cancel that absence out. They're obviously doing well enough in ratings (even with the Scape-Gate contrivances).
Still, I honestly don't think that Average Joe/Jane Fans would stop watching the show for the same reasons as we crazy fans. I'd imagine THEY'D stop watching if they simply forgot about it, or had something better to do on their Friday nights. I hear that malls and theaters are still open at the 8 o'clock hour, but by then I'm dead to the world...
Anyway, some crazy viewers like us would "stop" watching because they're not getting their way in the plot/character development department, sad to say.
Viewership is tough to measure - especially when you're dealing with a worldwide fanbase...
Honestly, if it were "quite a big group" of such fans then the ratings would have gone up, not down.
They didn't drop down, actually. Every year you have more and more subscribers to cable or digital TV, so these values change every year and the Nielsen point this year isn't the same as a year or 2 years ago, it covers bigger amount of families. So as a matter of fact, the ratings have gone up this year.
Anonymous said...
Why should the writers cater to fans who just started watching stargate now? It should be up to those new fans to catch up on the whole series themselves. The writers shouldn't have to start simplifying the show just to make it easier for the newbies to understand it.
Let's say that RDA isn't my favourite actor, so I've waited for him to leave the show permanently to start watching it. And I really don't feel the need to catch up on the whole 8 seasons.
Man, as far as I'm concerned, Trevor is a rock star.
Thank you Trevor!
Nancy Wilkerson
If Joseph Mallozzi gets this message then please, please, please have Cliff Simon's Ba'al come back often to Stargate. If you guys are having challenges with story lines for him, I'd love to write a few for your perusal. A great many SG-1 fans love his Royal Badness.
Thanks for your wonderful series.
Way to go!
Patricia Bertrand
contact through Galaxyofstars.net (nick name: Arctic Goddess)
Oh, sorry. Baal won't be in New Stargate. We don't want to confuse new viewers. We have to respect their ignorance, after all. Check out Vala next season though. She's kickass-sexy-fun.
The post above by John Ngyuen
is excellent and I agree 100%. Nothing more need be said at this time as John has pretty much summed it up nicely.
While John's whole post is right on for where many fans seem to be coming from, I especially agree with the following: "I think the writers have this attitude that because they aren't capable of or are unwilling to write a feasible explanation to the inconsistancies they've created that we as an audience will just accept those inconsistancies and go on contuing to love everything they put out there, no matter what the drek is. Things didn't have to be this way. They could have written any number of logical scenarios to explain any of the changes in the show. Instead they made a conscious decision to ignore logic, damned be anyone who feels otherwise. Now, when fans raise concerns and criticisms, the producers, Joe in particular, dismiss them out of hand with snide comments and an unwillingness to explain the motivations behind the choices made. Right now, the producers seem to hold an enormous amount of contempt for any fan who's disappointed in season nine."
Darn forgot to sign the above before posting it:
Binkpmmc
"Anonymous said...
Oh, sorry. Baal won't be in New Stargate. We don't want to confuse new viewers. We have to respect their ignorance, after all. Check out Vala next season though. She's kickass-sexy-fun."
She is, and Ba'al is coming back in Season 10...and later in Season 9.
But I guess you're right, and those pictures showing Ba'al on the show? Pfft, pure and utter Photoshopped. Oh yeah, most definately.
What I don't get is why fans are mad at Joe. You don't like the show? Say that. There is no point in insulting anyone.
PG15
Joe,
I know this has probably been asked before but will we see the Leviathan or other Earth related things like the lost cities of Lemuria and Mu?
Unless that Whale thing from GUP was the Leviathan, I mean it would make sense since in modern Hebrew Leviathan means "whale". Unlike I think it's standard hebrew where it means "twisted, coiled" or something, I don't actually speak Hebrew in any way shape or form so I have no idea if I'm right.
PG15 said...
majorsal, how about we wait for the episode to air, and hopefully THEN we'll get a reason for why they're all in leather.//
i already do know. sex it up.
how much you want to bet daniel won't have glasses on again? *goes to check pic* yep. guess vala sat on them again?
//No offense to you, or any other person in particular, but this "I hate this development which I've only seen snippets of and won't shut up about even though I don't have the full, big picture" syndrome really REALLY grates.
PG15//
i used to have faith, pg15, until the ball was dropped. and dropped. and dropped. etc.
on a side note to john ngyuen regarding his post... SPOT ON!!
sally :)
Oh come on. For all we know they do that to stay incognito.
And I guess that's where we differ: I still have faith, and plenty of it.
PG15
I love the blog, Joe. It's the only one I read, so keep on posting so I'll have another reason to check out the site every time I go on the computer.
I'm looking forward to he second half of the season. Only three more weeks left... (I''ve been doing a countdown since December 6th.)
PG 15 said:
"No offense to you, or any other person in particular, but this "I hate this development which I've only seen snippets of and won't shut up about even though I don't have the full, big picture" syndrome really REALLY grates.
PG15"
Sorry PG15 and no offense but I HAVE been waiting since mid-season 7 for this nonsense to end - the big picture is perfectly clear after 2 1/2 years of this downward spiral.
Binkpmmc (that's bink/binky/pinky to some).
is their any chance of their being a teal"c episode, you know like one where he goes out into the public again, you know when he had his own apartment for an episode, and the other where he gets infected with that bug thing
Matt-
Oh, yeah, like I told the guy earlier:
There won't be any Teal'c development stories. Or Carter or Daniel development stories either. This is New Stargate. Our new audience doesn't understand stuff from the first 174 episodes. That includes old character arcs. But Vala and Mitchell are so cool I can't contain myself. And check out the rockin space ships we've got flying your way.
"Let's say that RDA isn't my favourite actor, so I've waited for him to leave the show permanently to start watching it. And I really don't feel the need to catch up on the whole 8 seasons."
*shrug* That's fine. When you don't understand the background or older characters of stargate don't expect the writers to hold your hand.
"Oh, yeah, like I told the guy earlier:
There won't be any Teal'c development stories. Or Carter or Daniel development stories either. This is New Stargate. Our new audience doesn't understand stuff from the first 174 episodes. That includes old character arcs. But Vala and Mitchell are so cool I can't contain myself. And check out the rockin space ships we've got flying your way."
Do you ever get bored with spreading false propaganda?
PG15
In answering someone's post up there, I believe Daniel and Teal'c don't clamor for Sam to be leader is because they've experienced what a bad job she's done at it. Back in season 3, they had high hopes, mainly because Jack kept her on a short leash in terms of leadership and she was just following his methods/instructions anyway, so they thought she could do the job. Now they know better.
In the heat of a battle situation, where they are turning to the person most likely to get their butts out of there... I think they'd turn first to Teal'c to get them out of there, not Sam.
The reasons you have two tracks is because there aren't that many hours in a day to think Sam studied up on military strategy and all those reports and kept up with all the new science advances plus do all the research stuff she does. Not even for geniuses. Whenever she shows interest or excitement in anything, it's involving science or research, not anything to do with leadership, command, or military strategy. Daniel shows more involvement in that than she does in the fact that he's the one who always knows where all the teams are deployed, when they are due back, what they are doing, etc... pretty much like Jack did. And that's not counting all the time he spends on learning and assessing people, their skills, needs, capabilities, and actions, which is another necessary part of leadership... oh and listening... stuff you never see Sam do... but you see both Jack and Mitchell do. By the way, I'm not advocating Daniel in command.
As for Mitchell being capable of telling Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c how to do their jobs... he's as capable as Jack ever was. In fact, he seems to know more about their fields of expertise than Jack ever did. Still, Jack didn't need to know science to determine whether or not Sam should do what she wanted to do... neither does Mitchell... Mitchell has far more knowledge and respect for what Daniel does than Jack did, so I'd say he's more qualified than Jack to be telling Daniel what he should do. Jack didn't know anything more about fighting Goa'uld than anybody else and had to muddle his way through and learn. Mitchell read all the reports so he was probably pretty much up on the Goa'uld, replicators, supersoldiers and whatever he might have physically missed out on. It may not be first hand, but it isn't that much removed from muddling your way through the unknown either.
Mitchell has also commanded men as well as Jack has... in fact he's commanded larger units than Jack did as colonel if he had a whole squadron of pilots. Jack commanded small units of special ops commandos. And we also don't know what kind of history Mitchell has, for all we know he may have commanded commandos in his past too -- he may have done all sorts of things that make him more qualified than Jack ever was... we won't know until they tell us... and if they can play fast and loose with whether Sam would be up to speed to lead the team, they can do the same for Mitchell.
I think it's a silly argument that someone can't lead because he hasn't been through the situation. You put someone in charge because they can make hard, quick decisions under pressure, have the charisma to inspire confidence and trust in the people under them when the sh*t hits the fan, can think fast and creatively on their feet, and are adaptable to whatever situation is thrown at them. Whether they have ever been in the situation before is meaningless and basically irrelevant.
For all his sarcasms and dumb routines, Jack had all of the above in spades and you could put him into any unknown situation and he'd figure a way out with his team of experts. And as far as I can see, Mitchell has the same qualities.... I can't say the same thing for Sam... but then as far as I'm concerned, she was never meant or interested in that track.
"Anonymous said...
In answering someone's post up there, I believe Daniel and Teal'c don't clamor for Sam to be leader is because they've experienced what a bad job she's done at it. Back in season 3, they had high hopes, mainly because Jack kept her on a short leash in terms of leadership and she was just following his methods/instructions anyway, so they thought she could do the job. Now they know better.
In the heat of a battle situation, where they are turning to the person most likely to get their butts out of there... I think they'd turn first to Teal'c to get them out of there, not Sam.
The reasons you have two tracks is because there aren't that many hours in a day to think Sam studied up on military strategy and all those reports and kept up with all the new science advances plus do all the research stuff she does. Not even for geniuses. Whenever she shows interest or excitement in anything, it's involving science or research, not anything to do with leadership, command, or military strategy. Daniel shows more involvement in that than she does in the fact that he's the one who always knows where all the teams are deployed, when they are due back, what they are doing, etc... pretty much like Jack did. And that's not counting all the time he spends on learning and assessing people, their skills, needs, capabilities, and actions, which is another necessary part of leadership... oh and listening... stuff you never see Sam do... but you see both Jack and Mitchell do. By the way, I'm not advocating Daniel in command.
As for Mitchell being capable of telling Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c how to do their jobs... he's as capable as Jack ever was. In fact, he seems to know more about their fields of expertise than Jack ever did. Still, Jack didn't need to know science to determine whether or not Sam should do what she wanted to do... neither does Mitchell... Mitchell has far more knowledge and respect for what Daniel does than Jack did, so I'd say he's more qualified than Jack to be telling Daniel what he should do. Jack didn't know anything more about fighting Goa'uld than anybody else and had to muddle his way through and learn. Mitchell read all the reports so he was probably pretty much up on the Goa'uld, replicators, supersoldiers and whatever he might have physically missed out on. It may not be first hand, but it isn't that much removed from muddling your way through the unknown either.
Mitchell has also commanded men as well as Jack has... in fact he's commanded larger units than Jack did as colonel if he had a whole squadron of pilots. Jack commanded small units of special ops commandos. And we also don't know what kind of history Mitchell has, for all we know he may have commanded commandos in his past too -- he may have done all sorts of things that make him more qualified than Jack ever was... we won't know until they tell us... and if they can play fast and loose with whether Sam would be up to speed to lead the team, they can do the same for Mitchell.
I think it's a silly argument that someone can't lead because he hasn't been through the situation. You put someone in charge because they can make hard, quick decisions under pressure, have the charisma to inspire confidence and trust in the people under them when the sh*t hits the fan, can think fast and creatively on their feet, and are adaptable to whatever situation is thrown at them. Whether they have ever been in the situation before is meaningless and basically irrelevant.
For all his sarcasms and dumb routines, Jack had all of the above in spades and you could put him into any unknown situation and he'd figure a way out with his team of experts. And as far as I can see, Mitchell has the same qualities.... I can't say the same thing for Sam... but then as far as I'm concerned, she was never meant or interested in that track."
Why is it the smart ones are always wrong?
Because everybody holds his own truth.
Why not let the story developp before judging anyway ?
With 4 new characters, a new enemy/storyline to support too and 50 minutes, it's basic maths, you can't fit everything in one go.
Hey joe,
I told you to watch Gungrave last week. Please skip directly to episode 2, a friend thanked me for warning him about avoiding the spoiners from episode 1. I have also ordered Ryvius now, as your top 25 is kinda cool (but i was mad at berserk and last exile' s ending).
Grave of the fireflies is one of my favorites animes too, but i sometimes forget it because i only saw once ten years ago.. and it was a very painful time.
Another serie which i forgot in recent 3-4 years that i thourougly enjoyed was PLANETES , a sci-fi ecolo show about people cleaning up debris from space in quite a near future (of course, the scenario evolves and it's very sensible, intelligent and emotionnal at times)...
that's supposedly a space opera like Rivius, but i'm still waiting on my copy to compare.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=2654
also, people keep recommending me Monsters. i watched the first DVD, it's kinda slow at the beginning, but cool, i will problably give it a second shot.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=3750
btw, the best/mature work goscinny ever did was in the 60s/70s with gotlieb IMO (dingodossiers and ribrique à brac), i did kinda liked the rest like asterix, lucky luke and others when i was a kid tho.
merry christmas, and keep up the good job with stargate.
It was my understading that the reason Mitchell is leading the team instead of just joining it(as per his original request) was because AT was not available to fill the role of leader(or anything else) for 5 episodes! It'd be pretty unrealistic to say, well, 'Carter's not here so you get to be leader', and then say 'well, Carter decided to join you guys again, so you're getting demoted' a few weeks later.
I'm not chastising AT in any way for haing a baby(I like babies and AT)...just saying that real life sometimes has to influence fictional life.
As to the 'sexing up' of the show...wasn't the pilot eps the ones where Daniel's wife was completely nude(at least on Showtime)? That's seems a bit more 'sexing up' than some cleavage. And if you have any significantly sized boobs, you're going to get cleavage unless you physically tape them apart. I speak from experience.
And to some of you...if we're the idiots for watching the show for liking it, what are you for watching a show while disliking i?
it was indeed a fully naked frontal shot that's on season's 1 DVD.
it? not i?...sorry. *headdesk*
Don’t know if Joe's going to read this but here goes.
I read somewhere that the creators of Stargate were afraid of creating a super woman when they did the character of Sam. So from a certain point I do agree with them that command for Sam would of been a stretch with science being her field of interest. When she talks about it we see that there is not a lot of room for anything else. She’s very passionate about it. So I think it's very believable that Sam would not like leading.
We've been use to someone like Jack doing the commando type of leading with the hand signals and stuff. For my part, he was very credible. Cam on the other hand... I think to be different he does not do the hand signal. But I think it's a mistake. What I remember about him is talking loudly in an unknown forest and that seemed very amateur. Something Jack would never have done.
On the Sex issue I agree with many blogger. It should be turn down a notch. I was ok with the episode of grace under pressure up to the point where we saw Sam in a bikini top.
Joe; thanks for some insight on the inside of creating a great show. Obviously if people take the time to write here it’s because on some level they like the show, me included.
Qbert
SG1 have been talking about their plan of action 100 times whilst walking amongst forests, rivers, roads and they were looking for hours. Blaming cameron because he had as monologue to introduce the plot of the episode isn't serious.
He was the first to spot them and the attack wasn't related. that's how the script was shot, but you see something else because of your apprehension on the character that replaces oneill.
i didn't notice any sex up on SG1 and i'm watching the season 4 DVD right now... the tokra girls in season 3-4 are so damn sexy.
btw planetes is a sci-fi comedy that can be sour at times, and gungrave is a mafosio movie.
Lightsabre,
I've read this whole spiel by you before, and it sounds as ridiculous now as it did then. By your reasoning a young Lt. right out of the Academy should get command of SG teams, simply because they've read all the files and know about the program's past. I don't think you really believe that, no one's that dense.
And you say that Sam can't possibly keep up with the military and scientific aspect of SGC while at the same time saying that Daniel IS capable of running every team's archeological/cultural aspects and keeping up with the military side of things. So, to you, Daniel is smarter than Sam? Or, Daniel's field of expertise is less time consuming and difficult to master than Sam's?
And as for Mitchell, why do people insist upon apologizing away his mistakes/blunders/lack of experience/lack of qualifications as "The writers just haven't made that part up yet." What kind of argument is that? You're conceding that he's unqualified right now but hope that TPTB will ret-con an explanation for it?
ANONYMOUS
Regarding the posts by John Ngyuen and Trevor RAF - absolutely wonderful, you both have hit the nail on the head regarding many issues and problems surrounding Stargate SG1 and its PTB and thanks.
Alice Howse
A way to do story telling is jumping straight into action/the year plotline then work on characters background and stories in later episodes in the serie. Actually most sci-fi serie works that way else the first few episodes would be ridiculously boring and slow paced.
You guys are spotting mistakes on mitchell that oneill would have done (or wouldn't because he was executive producer wasn't he?).
the guy that lied about destroying a planet anddidn't follow the order given, was he really qualified to command a stargate mission again ?
tho, i agree to a certain extend, some things require explanations. why why why.
why thor couldn't think like humans to destroy replicants ? because he was to adanced and couldn't think of a dumb enough way to get rid of them ? right.
Ok, Joe, let's look at the command crapfest from a perspective that you can better relate to.
Let's say, by some freak accident of nature, that both Brad Wright and Rob Cooper were somehow injured during a particularly aggressive round of golf. Both of them will be in the hospital for the first two months of production, and both of them will be temporarily unable to perform their duties as showrunners. They both have, however, expressed a sincere interest in returning to work as soon as pysically able.
Now, in the interim, how would you feel if Scifi decided to bring in Rockne O'Bannon, whose show has just been cancelled due to low ratings, to run things instead of offering the job to yourself or Paul or anyone else involved with the show's previous success. Wouldn't that be rather disappointing? Wouldn't you feel rather undervalued? I'm sure you would, given the tenor of your posts over this past year.
Now, imagine that once doctors removed the putter from Brad Wright's ass and patched up the golfball-sized hole in Cooper's chest the two men responsible for SG-1's massive success return to work to find that Scifi has decided to keep on O'Bannon as showrunner. Cooper and Wright, along with you and all the other writers, now work under him. Now, imagine that he has decided to try and recreate Farscape on SG-1, hoping for better success given the fact that SG-1 actually has an audience. The episodes are rather flat, the new showrunner, while likable, isn't really that great at making good SG-1 episodes, and the new Fargate atmosphere is recieving a mixed reaction at best. Ratings are trending downward. Workers who have been with SG-1 from the beginning are generally unhappy.
Now, leave that imaginary hell where the creative enterprise that you and your colleagues have poured your hearts into for years is being ruined by studio/network interference and your own contributions to said enterprise's success are entirely ignored. Return to the soothing comfort of the current situation.
Now, look for parallels between that little vignette and state of affairs at Bridge today. Hopefully, if you're not just a dotard whose mind swirls with the same old tired tv formulas as every other "writer", you can understand why so many longtime fans of SG-1 are resentful of the current state of affairs. And there are a lot of us. And, no, I'm not talking about this wacky online fandom. I'm talking about those of us watching from home who don't understand where O'neill went, who don't know why Mitchell is there or leading, who dont' know why Teal'c left or returned to the SGC, who want to know why Carter left, why Daniel trusted Vala in Avalon, etc. It's crappy, inconsistent writing. And you know it.
Kiyuchan said: It was my understading that the reason Mitchell is leading the team instead of just joining it(as per his original request) was because AT was not available to fill the role of leader(or anything else) for 5 episodes! It'd be pretty unrealistic to say, well, 'Carter's not here so you get to be leader', and then say 'well, Carter decided to join you guys again, so you're getting demoted' a few weeks later.
I believe this is called the fallacy of affirming the consequent. 'If Carter is unavailable, SG-1 must be led by someone else. SG-1 is being led by someone else, therefore Carter can't be its leader.'
In contrast, here is the stop-gap scenario that took non-writer me less than a minute to devise. Mitchell comes in as a Major (and without that ridiculous MoH) and eps 1 thru 5 proceed much as they did. Ep 6 (Beachhead) is changed slightly so that Jackson and Teal'c respond as if they NOTICE (let alone are glad) that their longtime comrade has returned, and in 9.07 Carter hands out the SG-1 patches.
IMO, the SG-1 of eps 6-10 have bounced back and forth between being: a) an actual military-structured team and b) a group of 4 equally-ranked free agents. Furthermore, rather than the latter incarnation seeming a logical outgrowth of Carter, Jackson, & Teal'c's time together, it feels just messy and incoherent.
Dem's got my vote for the newest SG-1 writer.
Hey Joe,
Assuming you're still keeping up with all the comments, I have one question and I'd really appreciate if you could answer it. Do you guys still have a military advisor?
You obviously can't comment too much on it without opening a whole other can of worms but I'd really appreciate a simple yes or no.
quoting: "I've read this whole spiel by you before, and it sounds as ridiculous now as it did then. By your reasoning a young Lt. right out of the Academy should get command of SG teams, simply because they've read all the files and know about the program's past. I don't think you really believe that, no one's that dense."
This is a ridiculous leap to conclusion on your part that has nothing to do with my reasoning. Mitchell is not a young lieutenant out of the academy. Since the writers haven't yet given us a history on Mitchell other than him leading the Antartica air battle (something they wouldn't put a novice at, duh), how do you know that his past doesn't include enough military maneuvers that would make him understand exactly what the reports and past history of the program/base mean? You are making a ridiculous assumption that there isn't anything there just because you haven't been told about it yet. When all it really means is that the writers have chosen to reveal his past over the course of seasons 9 and 10... just like they did slowly with Carter, Jack, Daniel and Teal'c... or just like any TV writers do on any TV show.
It took years of experience for Mitchell and Carter to get to Lt. Colonel and years of experience for Jack to get to colonel. No matter what arena they got that experience in. However, as I see what they've given us as characters, both Jack and Mitchell got those years of experience in combat arenas where Carter got hers in the Pentagon labs and in whatever short courses of military training they give people like her that they don't expect to wind up where she wound up. You want to talk about character histories, there is no indication in the past they've given us that she's ever even gone through Officer Training School.
quoting: "And you say that Sam can't possibly keep up with the military and scientific aspect of SGC while at the same time saying that Daniel IS capable of running every team's archeological/cultural aspects and keeping up with the military side of things. So, to you, Daniel is smarter than Sam? Or, Daniel's field of expertise is less time consuming and difficult to master than Sam's?"
No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that they have shown us on screen Daniel's involvement and interest in the military side of things as well as his cultural/archeological interests whereas they have not shown us a similar interest or involvement with Sam... hers always has to do with the science angle of it. You have to deal with what you are shown and to me, the only reason Sam's been second in command on the team is that she's the only other one in the military on the team and as such, Jack can expect her to follow orders whereas Daniel will, while not disobeying an order, sometimes reinterpret an order in a way Jack didn't necessarily mean.
And for your education, military life is a subculture of the archeological/cultural facets of Daniel's field of expertise. Do you know how many cultures have very strong warrior subsets? Or even run the societies? If nothing else, Daniel would learn about military stuff and the people in it as part of his interests, not outside it. But regardless of that, they have shown us on screen an interest in the workings of the military side that we don't see with Sam... the only time we see any interest in her is when they actually have her giving out orders.
quoting: "And as for Mitchell, why do people insist upon apologizing away his mistakes/blunders/lack of experience/lack of qualifications as "The writers just haven't made that part up yet." What kind of argument is that? You're conceding that he's unqualified right now but hope that TPTB will ret-con an explanation for it?"
I said nothing about Mitchell being unqualified, making mistakes, making blunders or having lack of experience. What I said was that you can't call him unqualified when the writers have yet to tell us what his qualifications are. Presumably, they know what qualifies him to be where he is and plan to reveal it over time. They would have a pretty solid backstory already in place in their minds before even starting to write for him. So arguing that he's unqualified just because you haven't been told why he's qualified when they say he is qualified just by placing him there is just plain silly. When Jack walked into Cheyenne mountain as colonel in the movie to take command of the off-world team, I don't think they spent time justifying why he should be in command -- you accepted he should be because they told you he should be and over the course of the movie they revealed some things. And you are judging things now on the basis of eight years of hindsight.
As for Mitchell's mistakes or blunders, I haven't seen any... not like the ones I've seen of the person who proved she shouldn't be in command. The closest I've seen is when Mitchell touched what he shouldn't have touched and that was meant to be a joke... because Daniel was always touching things and Jack yelling at him, it was supposed to be funny that Daniel is now the guy yelling at the new guy for touching things. In fact, they even telegraphed that it's supposed to be a joke for the denser among us by having Daniel yell out, 'hey, new guy.'
What Anonymous said at 10:04 (the comparison with R Cooper and B Wright) is classic and really makes the point - maybe TPTB will even understand it.
Theresa Piper
Anonymous Lightsabre said:
"You have to deal with what you are shown"
But then said:
"What I said was that you can't call him unqualified when the writers have yet to tell us what his qualifications are. "
Nope, sorry. You don't get to have it both ways. This is basic debating 101--don't contradict yourself. Either you have to deal with what you're shown and take your interpretations and opinions from that, or you believe that there's some super-secret, yet-to-be-revealed plan for Mitchell. Right now, you're judging Carter only by what's shown onscreen and Mitchell by what's never been shown onscreen. Rethink your position with some consistent logic and get back to me. Until then you're just typing a whole lot of nothing. It's sophistry at its finest.
I'd say the significant loss would have to be one of the ships being destroyed prob either the Odyssey or the Prometheus just due to the comment of being concerned about the VFX budget on that one.
someone said: I read somewhere that the creators of Stargate were afraid of creating a super woman when they did the character of Sam. So from a certain point I do agree with them that command for Sam would of been a stretch with science being her field of interest. When she talks about it we see that there is not a lot of room for anything else. She’s very passionate about it. So I think it's very believable that Sam would not like leading.//
but she DID lead! she lead for literally the entire season 8. and before that, she was groomed for leadership by jack, which she showed great interest in.
are some of you forgetting that sam lead sg1 in season 8? some of you are making it sound like all of a sudden sam fans are saying 'why didn't sam get the lead when jack left?!'. well, she *did*.
there's absolutely NO reason why they *had* to write it that mitchell was given sg1 to lead. they could have come up with multiple reasons why for all the changes, but they chose this one. just like they chose jack being ? doing ?. just like they chose to not let sam and jack enter a relationship off screen. just like they chose to write a sex crazed criminal running around the sgc. just like they chose to let the general's snotty daughter work along her father on the base.
i don't think mitchell's a bad leader, he just doesn't *need* to lead sg1. sam is quite capable of leading it, since she's been trained for it for almost a decade. and with how much daniel and teal'c already know... the combined IQs of these ppl are probably off the chart. they are a well-oiled machine, *without* mitchell's contribution. but that's because sam, teal'c, and daniel know each other and their habits and abilities so well. it almost feels like mitchell's babysitting them, with how much *more* these three know about everything.
mitchell should have just been the fourth, as a 'major', learning from THE best.
lam should have never been allowed to serve with her father.
vala shouldn't have been allowed to do and say and behave the way she did.
as as for the frontal nudity that was in the pilot ep - as i remember things, the ptb didn't want to do that, it was showtime pushing for it. the difference with today is the ptb *want* to.
but back to my sore spot(s): if they didn't want sam to lead, they should have explained it in the first ep she was back. sam *does* care about that side of her career, so it was contrived and illogical to not have it brought up (let alone it being done in the first place).
sorry about the soapbox.
sally :)
I really, really can't wait until SGA and SG1 are back in January. It's driving nuts that there's no new eps! It's also driving me nuts that it seems like Fox only showed half of the 1st season of Atlantis or maybe I just missed a lot? *shrug*
Just wondering, is it just me or do Mitchell and Sheppard act very similar?
mitchell will have to save either the world or carter's butt a few times to earn the respect of some hardcore fanbase, it's obvious, and a few will remain old school and say things were better in teh good ol' times.
what really stands out to me is that it that nobody complain about the credibility of beau bridges or lexa something, that's because cameron is replacing the one and only RDA.
And replacing one of the quatuor that's SG1 will never be easy nor accepted by all. over the years these chharacters have become godlike super heroes, and it's a tight outfit to wear.
i agree a line with carter saying to beau bridges she's not sure how long she'll be there and that she want to concentrate on the scentific side of the mission wouldn't hurt, or even cameron asking carter, and her telling him he's doing fine.
but then again the SG1 team has been back for like 4 eps...
To the anonymous poster above this. You're confusing the actors with the characters. Ben Browder replaced RDA. Cameron Mitchell is trying to replace Jack O'neill.
And so far it doesn't look like Mitchell could save either of those things. However, he does flip, fall, swing his arms, and jump all the time, so that's fun.
but then again the SG1 team has been back for like 4 eps...
Yeah, the "team" from the first five eps really sucked. This one is way better and actually good at doing stuff. I guess getting sam back made all the diff.
"...just like they chose to not let sam and jack enter a relationship off screen."
Just know that all fans aren't upset about this. Personally, I've always thought the potential romance between the two felt forced and unnatural. I am not a shipper, and the unsubtle hints at the pairing is more than enough for me.
Aside from that...honestly, the situation that led to Mitchell's having command made sense to me from a character standpoint. It made sense taht Teal'c would be going off doing Jaffa things, that Daniel would finally try to go to Atlantis, and that Sam would finally go do science-y things(as she's a scientist).
All of these things were in line for their characters. Because while I think that Sam is perfectly fine as a leader, she's an even better scientist. She's supposed to be one of the most brilliant people on the planet. It actually made me happy that they let Sam go off and do fun scientist things during AT absence.
katrina,
Yeah, they only aired to "The Storm" for SGA and "Endgame" for SG1.
PG15
Haha, somehow, reading this blog of Joe's and its comments, instantly reminded me of a great article written by a guy who's a developer for computer game. Even though creating a MMO game is not quite 1=1 to creating a television series, I'm still quite sure that some of you (maybe even Joe himself ;) may find quite few common points and issues to relate with :D
Anyhoo, here's the read:
http://www.idlethumbs.net/display.php?id=177
Highly recommended, it's never a bad thing to see the flip-side of the coint too ^__^
Wow, people never cease to amaze me. But I think all in all Joe you did hit something on the head... The definition of the term 'majority'.
Just because you are more vocal then the rest, doesn't make your opinions more valid or part of the majority. There are so many fans that don'e even come online, so does that mean their opinions somehow don't count, because they aren't screaming?
Do you think we could have a conversation with out questioning Amanda Tapping integrity. Of course, I find it interesting that so many 'anonymous' posters are doing that.
Or maybe one where not everyone is screaming 'the sky is falling' because Vala is joining the cast. Do you people know something that the rest of us don't? Have you seen the as yet ummade, in most places unwritten episodes of s10 that will give your vehiment hatred some validity?
Maybe we can also accept that while the idea of team leadership hasn't been addressed in SG-1, we can step back and acknowledge that the team has only been back together for 4 epsiodes, and not all of them have they been 'together' - so we have no idea who Teal'c and Daniel listen too.
Also, just for fun can we stop bitching about Jack O'Niell not being refered to 600 times in every episode. He is not there. My friends who have moved I talk to often, but I don't talk about them all the time. He'll be meantioned when he is needed. We really don't need to hear about him eating at McDonald's 5 times a week and that he has given up Guiness for cheap vodka. How about we hear about Jack when it is important, that would make sence wouldn't it.
And what's with the factioning of a fan base. We all like SG-1 right? Do we have to break ourselves into Daniel lovers, Sam lovers etc?
Also, just think about this for a moment. Just one. It is imposible for the PTB to make everyone happy all the time. Deal with it. They make the show they want to make, otherwise who be in a creative industry period? Think about that.
Is it emperative that this blog reply sections has turned into a medium of character assasintations? Can't people enjoy the show without having to defend their ages or intelligence. Just because you don't like it, doesn't suddenly make you intelligent...
Sam/Jack shippers, the show isn't soley yours. Not everyone wants to see them together. And logically I agree with something Amanda said in an interview. To paraphrase if they ever get together, they'd have sex and wake up the next morning realising they are better off as friends.
The thing is, they both loved someone they couldn't have, and that was safe for them. That's what made it interesting to watch (most of the time). That's why it was a subtext for the most part. It was there, addressed occasionally be left on it's merry way most of the time.
It's when things rapidly become text it gets tacky... Did anyone notice interest in the X-Files went down when Mulder and Scully finally get it on? Think about that.
But all in all Joe I just want you to know, there are some of us that have faith in you guys. You have bought us quality before, and I know you will do it again and I look forward to seeing the rest of season 9 and 2 play out and then seasons 10 and 3 next year. Because I for one am very curious as to how the Ori thing is going to work - whether or not the Jaffa degenerate in civil war (as most nations do when they gain independance); etc etc etc....
"Wow, that was a load."
dee said: Also, just for fun can we stop bitching about Jack O'Niell not being refered to 600 times in every episode. He is not there. My friends who have moved I talk to often, but I don't talk about them all the time. He'll be meantioned when he is needed. We really don't need to hear about him eating at McDonald's 5 times a week and that he has given up Guiness for cheap vodka. How about we hear about Jack when it is important, that would make sence wouldn't it.//
no.
jack o'neill (and richard dean anderson) was not just the star of the show, he was the heart and soul of this show for MANY years. when rda wanted to reduce his contribution, it was the writers that handled it poorly. i remember rda saying in some interview that he wanted his character to be written like hammond's (when jack was general), but look how that turned out.
but however they wrote him those last two seasons, jack was a HUGE and IMPORTANT character to the stargate mythology. choosing to have him head of homeworld security was a bit of a stretch, because jack didn't like working behind a desk. but okay, he's one of the big cheeses now... so if the writers wrote him in such an important role, then why didn't his name come up in 'the fourth horseman'? (it should have, with the plot of that ep)
as a jack/rda fan, i'm not expecting his name to pop up every ep. or every other ep. or every fifth ep. but since his character (and the actor) were so important to this show, what's wrong with mentioning him SOMETIMES?
mention him 600 times? no. mention him once in a while? that would be nice. (same with janet)
//Sam/Jack shippers, the show isn't soley yours. Not everyone wants to see them together. And logically I agree with something Amanda said in an interview. To paraphrase if they ever get together, they'd have sex and wake up the next morning realising they are better off as friends.//
i can't think of one, single shipper that said she/he wanted the sam/jack show. not one. and i know that not all fans want to see them together, but since the writers are the ones that started it, and promoted it for years, seeing an outcome to that promotion would be super nice.
i adore amanda, but i don't share her thoughts on the sam/jack issue in that above statement.
to spend 8 years showing that these two ppl mean the world to one another (including seeing them get together with other ppl only for those relationships to fall apart because of their shared feelings), it would be a HUGE anti-climactic letdown to see them 'do it' once and then realize they're better off as friends. talk about building a mountain out of a molehill...
sally :)
Dee said: "Or maybe one where not everyone is screaming 'the sky is falling' because Vala is joining the cast. Do you people know something that the rest of us don't? Have you seen the as yet ummade, in most places unwritten episodes of s10 that will give your vehiment hatred some validity?"
Yes - (1) cliche baby and (2-6 1/4)they are called season 8 ep PU as well as S9 eps 1-5 1/4. TPTB couldn't write her believable or without making the SGC, and Daniel in particular, look stupid then and it is unlikely they'll be able to write her in S10 since "everyone" LOVES THIS Vala - if they change her than it's not the Vala TPTB apparently love and love to write for. (Not to mention the fact that by Joe Mallozzi's own admission they brought on a character but don't know why Vala is joining the SGC or why the SGC even wants her - can you say writing the show around a character instead of writing the show to make sense and have logic, including the plot, and then casting the character?) Rock-on low-brow, pander to the lowest common denominator, sci-fi cliche!
Terry
Anonymous Lightsabre said:
"You have to deal with what you are shown"
But then said:
"What I said was that you can't call him unqualified when the writers have yet to tell us what his qualifications are. "
Nope, sorry. You don't get to have it both ways. This is basic debating 101--don't contradict yourself. Either you have to deal with what you're shown and take your interpretations and opinions from that, or you believe that there's some super-secret, yet-to-be-revealed plan for Mitchell. Right now, you're judging Carter only by what's shown onscreen and Mitchell by what's never been shown onscreen. Rethink your position with some consistent logic and get back to me. Until then you're just typing a whole lot of nothing. It's sophistry at its finest."
You're an idiot if you think my two statements contradict each other, or maybe you ought to take a course in understanding English. I'm done debating you on this topic because you are a waste of time. Nothing we've been shown shows Mitchell as unqualified... that's only you're own desire to have Sam in command. And when they finally give you the details of how he is qualified to continue leading as well as he has so far, you're going to have to admit to yourself you were being an idiot.
Jack was in Avalon Part 1 and Origin. He was also mentioned in Beachhead. Is that not good enough?!
That's 3 times in 10 episodes! I think that counts as "sometimes".
Terry, I really don't see the problem with that. They like the character, they like the actress, and they want her on the show. She's been in the Ori galaxy the longest, and I figure it will be perfect to have her, as a eye witness, to at least visit the SGC and see what info she has. As for why she joins SG1 (which we don't know for sure yet anyway), well, I guess we'll just have to WAIT AND SEE.
Is that SUCH a new concept for you guys?!
If it's a cliche, what other character in sci-fi is like Vala? (I seriously don't know about this, so please, enlighten me).
PG15
Anonymous Lightsabre said:
"You're an idiot if you think my two statements contradict each other, or maybe you ought to take a course in understanding English. I'm done debating you on this topic because you are a waste of time. Nothing we've been shown shows Mitchell as unqualified... that's only you're own desire to have Sam in command. And when they finally give you the details of how he is qualified to continue leading as well as he has so far, you're going to have to admit to yourself you were being an idiot."
Ah, the sweet sound of capitulation. Look, if all you're gonna do is throw insults at me now that you're argument has been debunked in Round 1, well fine. Good new argument with the "You'll see, then you'll be sorry." Spare us the super-villain riff.
Actually to be more accurate, I believe Amanda in that interview said she didn't know what to think about Sam and Jack having a future together...that maybe they'd just have a night together and decide to be just friends afterwards.
But I agree...after the build up and then Threads where both sides kinda had to face their feelings, it'd be such a humongo let down if they did what Amanda pondered aloud or if the show never mentioned or addressed ship again.
I mean the writers chose to go down that road so finish what was started. Would it really kill the PTB to have them get together and have a few definitive scenes together at some point in the future? At least then the Grace through Threads arc will actually have meant something...
Mary Beth
pg15 said: Jack was in Avalon Part 1 and Origin. He was also mentioned in Beachhead. Is that not good enough?!
That's 3 times in 10 episodes! I think that counts as "sometimes".//
jack's appearance in avalon p1 was fine, but in origin... horrible. maybe i blacked it out.
as for beach head... that worked! they didn't even show him, but he was included in a small way. which is how he should have been used in fourth horseman p1. (if they didn't want to mention jack this much, they shouldn't have written him working for such an important *to the sgc* role)
this character is too important to stargate mythology to be forgotten so easily. it's disrespectful to not only the character, but the fans that have adored and followed this character and actor for years.
look how they handled daniel's departure, especially in season 6. he was mentioned and shown to be loved and cared about. and when he made appearances in that season, THEY MEANT SOMETHING.
//As for why she joins SG1 (which we don't know for sure yet anyway), well, I guess we'll just have to WAIT AND SEE.
Is that SUCH a new concept for you guys?!//
pg15, how long have you been a fan of sg1? i ask, because i actually started off like you. trusting the ptb, not understanding other fans gripings... things change, because *we're* changed by the things we're seeing done on the show.
my days of total trust and obedience are gone.
//If it's a cliche, what other character in sci-fi is like Vala? (I seriously don't know about this, so please, enlighten me).
PG15 //
vala *could* be interesting and a kick-butt character, if she wasn't written as a lying, selfish, immoral dominatrix. and watching everyone's reactions to her is almost more cringe-worthy than vala herself.
sally :)
Okay in no way did Joe said they didn't know why Vala was going to join the team; he said they don't know how they are going to tell that part of the story of something like that...
You know I have been a fan of SG-1 for a damned long time, and I don't see the character as a degrading influence on the show - I think having a character that has spent some time in prior-land could be interesting. Incidently, just beause she is going to be on the show, doesn't mean she'll be on SG-1. And just because people love Vala, doesn't mean they are going to have a problem with change. She ain't going to be the same, and as someone that admits to liking Vala - I am quite interested to see how it is going to play out.
Anyways; as for Jack being mentioned or scene. 3/10 episodes is enough for the moment. Don't you think it is disrespectful for the other characters for him to still be the most important character in the show? Hell, Daniel died in season 6 and he what; guessed stared in 3 episodes? And he was coming back!!!
As for getting Jack and Sam together; I don't agree. I know many people who don't. What is great about UST is the Unrealised aspect of it. Now TBTP did around season 3 start to cash in heavily on the subtext of Jack and Sam... but does that mean there is a happily ever after for them? I'm doubtful, and if that's the only reason Jack will ever be seen or mentioned - I'd rather they killed him off.
Seriously, the show is *more* then Jack O'Neill. I am sorry some of you disagree; but it is a emsemble and I for one, while I miss Jack, do like the new team.
Ohh and BTW - yes they could have used jack in forthhorsemen P1, but they didn't have too. Hammond wasn't always at the other end of the phone in s8, why should Jack be here?
It was never "Stargate SG-Jack" and I'd be sad to see it end because that's what people thought.
mary beth said: I mean the writers chose to go down that road so finish what was started. Would it really kill the PTB to have them get together and have a few definitive scenes together at some point in the future? At least then the Grace through Threads arc will actually have meant something...//
'will actually have meant something'...
that's a very profound statement, seeing as i think that's the number one gripe for fans of ALL topics.
if something happens to a character on the show, we expect to see the fallout or celebration. (like we saw in s5's 'meridian' on)
jack left the sgc permanently. at one time, that would have been a HUGE storyline to be handled on the show, whether rda was present or not. (think ppl grieving for daniel in s5's 'revelations')
janet died. and then was never spoken of again for a season and a half.
sam and jack *finally* are out of the same chain of command (which the ptb said was the number one reason they couldn't bring them together). where are they now, relationship wise?
(i'll stop now, because i'm getting LOTS of ideas for this topic)
whether you're a fan of the above storylines or not, they need(ed) to be addressed. for every action there's a reaction. of course the show can't show *all* the reactions to everything the team has went through, but just those three examples above warrant more than what has been shown. to me at least.
sally :)
I definately agree with you about Jack's importance, but:
"look how they handled daniel's departure, especially in season 6. he was mentioned and shown to be loved and cared about. and when he made appearances in that season, THEY MEANT SOMETHING."
Daniels was DEAD. Jack's...well, Jack is a phonecall away. If they miss him, they'd probably call him or something. Yes, it's not on screen, but sometimes you can't fit that much into a 42 minute episode.
Another thing with this is, and I think I know this from experience, is that, as long as the person is around, we don't miss them as much. Now, take my grand parents for example, I love them and miss them. However, I know that they are still alive, and as such, I don't think about them everyday as I go about my life. I sometime do, but I don't let it cross my mind all the time. Does it make me a bad person? Perhaps, but I can't help it. Now, I'm sure I would think of them for a very long time each day if they passed on.
I hope that made sense.
"pg15, how long have you been a fan of sg1? i ask, because i actually started off like you. trusting the ptb, not understanding other fans gripings... things change, because *we're* changed by the things we're seeing done on the show.
my days of total trust and obedience are gone."
Aha, you caught me. I've been a fan...don't quite remember. I think I really got into it around Avalon part 1 or so. So yes, you're most likely right regarding some long-time fans having lost faith.
Hopefully that won't happen with me...but hey, no one knows for sure.
"vala *could* be interesting and a kick-butt character, if she wasn't written as a lying, selfish, immoral dominatrix. and watching everyone's reactions to her is almost more cringe-worthy than vala herself."
Sci-fi's a free for all IMHO. Any character could work. We'll just have to see what happens. I think she'll be just fine.
You...well, probably not.
PG15 (This should really be in a thread)
Also, I do believe the Grace and Threads arc did have a meaning. It's called self-discovery. Just because one discovers something about themselves, doesn't mean they have to act on it.
** but she DID lead! she lead for literally the entire season 8. and before that, she was groomed for leadership by jack, which she showed great interest in. **
In how many episodes in Season 8 did she really lead SG-1? New Order 1 or 2? Nope. Lockdown? Nyet. Zero Hour? Yep, and look how well that turned out due to her need to prove herself. Icon? A little. Avatar? Nope. Affinity? Nope. Covenant? She let Colson almost kill both of them; otherwise, not so much in the way of leadership. Sacrifices? No. Endgame? She got captured by herself. Gemini? Her brain was out to lunch and she nearly screwed the whole galaxy. Prom Unbound?. Not in it, was she? Good To be King? Jack took over command. Full Alert? Jack was in charge. Reckoning 1/2? She is never in charge by herself; Jacob/Selmak is there telling her what to do. Threads? Too much love life angst to give any orders. Moebius 1/2: Nope.
So please tell me when she was in charge. SG-1 was a collection of 3 equals, mostly off on their own in Season 8. When she was in charge, the team got into big trouble. That's why they didn't move Mitchell out of the way when Carter returned from Area 51. She's a world-class scientist and that's what she needs to remain.
** But I agree...after the build up and then Threads where both sides kinda had to face their feelings, it'd be such a humongo let down if they did what Amanda pondered aloud or if the show never mentioned or addressed ship again. **
Uh, no it wouldn't. It would be a mongo relief.
'sick to death of mitchell bashing', i would have liked for the writers to have focused on sam leading the team in season 8 too, but they chose to mainly focus on her personal life issues for her character. as a sam fan (besides being an s/j shipper), i was VERY disappointed in that (lack) of developement.
as for your examples of sam's lackings in the command skills department; that's your interpretation, one i do not share in. i didn't see her do anything horrible in season 8, including 'gemini'. she didn't just let 'someone' in, her mind was messed with about as big as anyones could get. (imagine screwing yourself over. only *you* would know what to say and do to accomplish this)
sally :)
"...vala *could* be interesting and a kick-butt character, if she wasn't written as a lying, selfish, immoral dominatrix...."
I don't know. I like Vala for just those reasons...she's a nice contrast to all of the goodness of the other characters. She's not nessesarily evil, but she's certainly not good. Although, we don't know how her experiences in the Ori's galaxy will have changed her.
I think she brings a needed element of pure fun to the ensemble. But, CB can very easily do the dramatic bits if nessesary(as per the 'set on fire/brought back to life' bit). Her reactions almost made me cry.
And, yes. She's a bit one-dimensional at the moment, but she's only had 6 episodes so far. It took Teal'c, like, seasons for his character to fully develop into something beyond 'honorable and stoic alien warrior'.
And, the same thing goes for Mitchell. Half a season is not enough to make up your mind on a regular character. I like him so far, but he's not going to the top of my fave list, yet. I figure I'll wait until the end of S9, at least.
Of course, I'm also of the opinion that leather != bad. Leather == comfy. Maybe that skewed me liking of Vala. Haha.
All I'm seeing here is a bunch of people trying to come up with excuses for poor handling of a number of different situations, then trying with all the might in their wee brains to convince others with the same fanwanking. I've got a guy who's argued himself into a corner. I've got a guy who's been watching for all of 10 episodes spamming this thing with his "trust TPTB" mantra. I've got a gal who really, truly, honest-to-God believes that TPTB have gone out of their way to illustrate that Sam Carter is incapable of competently leading SG-1.
Super. Way to go on those fans of yours, Joe. Just the kind of support you're looking for, an adolescent and a wacko. This blog is great.
This is the only online fandom of which I've ever been apart, but I can't help but feel like this is obscenely abnormal. Like bad. Like crazy bad...
I don't mean to be a downer, but is this how the fandom is slated to end? In chaos created by division and factions?
Bummer.
I don't find it a bummer. I think it's enlightening :)
It's cool for a writer to see how his work is interpreted differently by various sections of his audience. When I see Carter beating herself up over the Fifth/RepliCarter arc, I see a strategist who, unlike O'Neill, realised what a gift of an arsenal they gave the Replicators in Evolution when they taught them the power of human deceit and betrayal. Meanwhile another viewer only sees her hung up on having to lie to baby-faced Fifth.
I remember that Carter was a combat pilot in the Gulf War. Someone else here thinks she can't lead a team because she's also scientist.
Like I said, enlightening.
"Just the kind of support you're looking for, an adolescent and a wacko."
Well, I'm not an adolescent, and I don't think I'm a wacko and I 'support' Joe. Just because we like how the show is developing doesn't mean we have 'wee brains'.
Just because a few of you really hate the way the show is going, doesn't mean that the majority of people in the fandom agree with you. A majority of people reading the blog, perhaps, but not the fandom as a whole.
If you're so convinced that you're in the majority(and the evidence says otherwise), then organize yourselves and stop watching. That's the quickest way to get tv-people's attention. If the 'majority' of fans stops watching it should be noticable in the ratings.
Because, you know what I did when X-files got me so mad at what was happening on screen? I stopped watching. It still went on for 4 more seasons, but I was obviously the minority, and I stopped being mad, and the fans kept watching. Win-win situation.
But kiyuchan, this is a bit like telling sports fans they should stop watching their favourite team just because they think they're doing badly at the moment. That's the difference between sports fandom and show fandom: not that TV fans are any more obsessed, or spend more money (because they don't!), but the notion among some that it's a kind of heresy to criticise. Soccer fans can go into a pub after a match and say "Well, I thought they were utterly crap today" or "So-and-so played well but so-and-so played bad" or "Our current manager/coach sucks" or "This season's been great" or "This season's been dire" - and that's all considered normal. Differing opinions are allowed, and fans don't get rapped or told to go aaway for holding them and explaining them. But god forbid a Stargate fan should point out something he thinks gone bad in the writing, for example, because that's considered heresy. Critical acclaim is permitted, but not critical dissent.
And guess what: this is why TV show fans get a rep for being crazed geeks and sports fans don't.
** I've got a gal who really, truly, honest-to-God believes that TPTB have gone out of their way to illustrate that Sam Carter is incapable of competently leading SG-1. **
Aren't you the one who insisted we debate the characters or the writing but not mix them? Gee, there I was sticking to your rules and you go ignore them. I don't know if TPTB purposely showed Carter as a weak leader. Personally I think they were twisted into pretzels trying to keep Jack relevant to the stories with 10 RDA filming days/month or whatever it was. All I know is Carter was not presented as the clear or consistent leader of SG-1 in Season 8. Therefore I was not shocked or dismayed to find a full-time leader assigned to SG-1 in Season 9. And yes, I do think the writing in Gemini was incredibly lazy and damaging to Carter's character. Mitchell may be low key, but he's not written to make horrible decisions for all of humanity and then get a 'there, there, dearie' pat on the head from his commander.
I do think the writing in Gemini was incredibly lazy and damaging to Carter's character.
In fact it was lazy re all the SGC personnel. They were made to look utterly lacking in imagination in that not one of them voiced the possibility that RepliCarter might just have her own on-going interests at heart. Carter merely takes the brunt of it, in the same way that Daniel looked so foolish for trusting The Destroyer of Worlds just because she'd got amnesia and a prettier face. Fortunately with Gemini, the laziness is at the beginning of the episode this time, so it's relatively easy to get over it and enjoy the rest.
o BECK. That was a great series. This has probably been asked many yimes before but, are we ever going to see the furlings? or hear more about the aliance between the four greate races?
"Aren't you the one who insisted we debate the characters or the writing but not mix them? Gee, there I was sticking to your rules and you go ignore them."
Yeah, that wasn't me. Sorry. Although, I think you're confusing what you wish was shown onscreen with what actually was shown. Maybe to you, in you mind, TPTB showed Sam as a bad leader. But don't pretend that that's in any way the general consensus beyond the Sam-hatin' mentality. Lump it in with the "she got Janet shot in Heroes" spiel and the "Jonas is a killer" and "Jack is nothing but a moron" lines you spam all the boards with and file it under "crazy".
Annoyed With The Know-It-All said:
"Mitchell may be low key, but he's not written to make horrible decisions for all of humanity and then get a 'there, there, dearie' pat on the head from his commander."
Hmmm - Just one example I seem to remember is a very horrible decision that cost several SGC personnal their lives as a result with absolutely no reprecussions to Mitchell - but the "gee I thought it was a light switch" line was so funny it is his "pat on the head - dearie" and makes it okay for him to make stupid, illogical, newbie mistakes. (He's a plot device and his mistakes and stupid decisions show he is not fit to have co-command of this team.) If they want to have him as co-leader then please stop making him look, and sound, like an idiot and stop making excuses for him - the gee he's new argument holds absolutely no water esepcially when the other side of the argument is that he "must" have the experience to be a co-leader of the elite SG team we just haven't seen it yet - you are darn right we haven't seen it yet - in my opinion we have not seen any inkling that he can or should be in commmand of the elite off-world frontline SG1 at this point in time.
Jim
** Lump it in with the "she got Janet shot in Heroes" spiel and the "Jonas is a killer" and "Jack is nothing but a moron" lines you spam all the boards with and file it under "crazy". **
And there I was almost believing in a rational conversation free of gross generalizations. Silly me. Isn't it becoming a bit cliché in this fandom to dismiss any opinion by lumping the person in with whatever extremist faction seems to fit? I know I'm yawning.
My main point was not that Sam was shown as a bad leader, but that she was not often shown as the team leader at all in Season 8. I don't know how much more plainly I can say it than that. If you can come up with counter-examples I would be happy to read them.
First blogger post so here goes.
Icecream...mmmm...have seen Timtams in UK supermarkets tho!
Glad Vala's back, she's adding a bit of spice to Daniel's character...which is great.
I'm warming up to Mitchell....(helps I've now watched all of farscape!). did like babylon a lot...looking forward to the rest of season 9 and where that goes.
Episode 200, *grin* can't wait....all I can say is the crazier the better!
would almost rather be christmas shopping said:
If you can come up with counter-examples I would be happy to read them.
I'm not the one you are arguing with but I know it is easy to assume the worst about others, especially when they post anonymously. I have done it before. The part I quoted from you is my problem. It's now about defending Sams right to the job she had rather than about explaining why Mitchell gets to take it. Or even deserves it. You are turning the debate into an attack of Sam who was already established as leader of SG1. You even say that she was leader. But now you ask for people to tell you why she should be it. No one is questioning Sam, they want to know why Mitchell should be allowed to lead. All he has done is get shot down in antactica along with other pilots. That doesn't make him special or means he should lead SG1. I don't think you mean to argue with this point and all people really want is some sort of explanation one way or another. JMHO
SG13Lover
Well said, SG13Lover.
You want to talk about character histories, there is no indication in the past they've given us that she's ever even gone through Officer Training School.
All right, you're just plain confused. OTC is for enlisted personnel. Samantha Carter graduated from the Air Force Academy. The following is from the first paragraph of its mission statement:
"Before its graduates enter various flying and support specialties, the Academy trains them to be, first and foremost, Air Force officers."
SG13Lover, you summed it up well. Thank you.
I meant "OTS", obviously.
Don't forget the Anonymous insulter. He's here too for some weird reason.
PG15
Joe. I assume you have seen the the infamous "The Prisoner" series.
I was wondering if you ever considered doing a stargate spin on that concept?
Thanks SG13Lover - well said.
BinkPmmc (Binky/Bink/Pinky to some)
To Kish as per the sports analogy...
I think the problem with that analogy is that in sports it's pretty obvious when a team is doing badly: their scores are low and they lose their games. In television the line is not nearly so clear cut. Many of us(fans) dislike the direction the show is going. Many of us do not. I, personally, don't see the losing score like you do. Yeah the occasional game might be bad, but the overall season is good. In my eyes.
The problem I've been having is less the opinions, and more the nature that the opinions have taken, i.e. accusing TPTB of ruining the show by not listening to the 'majority' of fans, even though there is no evidence that such a majority exists.
I don't like every episode that comes out. It's unreasonable to think that that anyone could. Hell, I've intensely disliked episodes from every season, from S1 on up(I loathe some S1 episodes beyond reason). But, for me, I'm actually enjoying this season more than much of last season and some of S7. And it's fine that you don't. But, many people are expressing that dissatisfaction in a rude, and sometimes dishonest, way.
{
Rude==calling satisfied fans stupid
Dishonest==most fans dislike Mitchell leading the team
}
I don't know, just about all of the people I talk to don't like Mitchell leading the team. And none of them come online or participate in fandom. My one friend is in the Marines and he says Mitchell would never get command being so inexperienced.
The problem I've been having is less the opinions, and more the nature that the opinions have taken, i.e. accusing TPTB of ruining the show by not listening to the 'majority' of fans, even though there is no evidence that such a majority exists.
LOL. I agree. Many online fans seem to forget that they are a very tiny percentage of the entire viewing audience. While certain factions on online fans might dislike Mitchell or like him, hate Vala or love her, feel Daniel is the be all of Stargate or a pain in the butt, like Sam or despise her, or love everyone, etc., it's certainly not "All fans" or "most fans," -- no one has any clue at all what the entirety of viewers think or feel about the characters. Furthermore, if the entire viewing audience really had strong feelings about all these characters and gave a rat's patoot, I suspect they would be be on-line with the rest of us.
Speaking only for myself, I wish I could like or dislike Mitchell, but I can do neither; he just totally disintersts me and I find the character so very bland (Ben is doing the best he can with what he is given) -- totally bored by him. I can't see how he could lead the team due to his non-entity of a personality. Follow Mitchell? Give me Sam anyday. For all her many faults, I'd trust her more than what's his name.
"I don't know, just about all of the people I talk to don't like Mitchell leading the team. And none of them come online or participate in fandom. My one friend is in the Marines and he says Mitchell would never get command being so inexperienced."
Then perhaps dishonest wasn't the right thing to say. Sorry.
As to Mitchell...I don't think we know what his experience is beyond leading the attack in Antartica. We don't know anything else about his past, so I don't see how we can judge his ability to command. Just because they haven't given us his qualifications, doesn't mean they don't exist.
But you and your friend are entitled to your opinions about it. Just remember that you don't nessesarily represent all(or even most) fans.
Hey Joe - just saw your post at the other site where you answer questions and found your post re: the Vala thing a great testament to what many people here think is wrong with your attitude - arrogance personified in that you say anyone who thinks that way about Vala is waaaay wrong - this just confirms what so many have been saying. You think because you, including your friends who make up the proverbial PTB say it, the poor stupid fans should believe it and if they don't well then they are the stupid ones and waaay wrong about it.
Whatever happened to people being able to form their own interpretations of something - good or bad? Oh I forgot this is Stargate with the all powerful and almighty PTB who can do no wrong and if anyone criticizes (legitimate constructive criticisms which I have seen plenty of) or disagrees well THEY are just stupid, and wrong, not TPTB.
Just so you hear it again - there are a lot of people who dislike Vala, many who "hate" her, many who want her toned down, many who think recurring would have been fine and many who like her or "love" her - please do not insult a large portion of that fan group with your petty arrognace and your pandering to that certain common denominator - I swear it must be in your contract to pimp CB and Vala at every turn - how much extra did they offer you for that?
Carole
kiyuchan,
I, personally, don't see the losing score like you do.
Um, I don't see a losing score in season 9. I haven't been totting up :g:. I just enjoyed Prototype and I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to the rest of season 9 starting in January. Your point that a sports team's success is less subjective than a TV show's (ratings notwithstanding) is taken. However it's not that crucial, given that within a game or season fans can (and do) argue til the cows come home re. who/what is responsible for said team's current glories/miseries.
Whether a piece of plotting is solid or shaky isn't particularly subjective. Writing is a craft and good/shoddy workmanship is usually obvious. Sure, some people are going to use OTT phrases like "ruined" etc. - I plead guilty to ridiculing a Carter-basher on a previous blog who was exceptionally pompous when insulting the writers and Carter-fans alike. Fans aren't professional critics (thank god) and have no investment in being guarded or measured. On the contrary, being fans (i.e. "fanatics") of the show, we should expect hyperbole. It's just that telling someone not to watch the show because they go off on one is a non-starter: they will stop watching anyway if they are disappointed enough. It only matters (to the show) if millions of regular viewers do likewise.
"Um, I don't see a losing score in season 9. I haven't been totting up."
Sorry, then. It's hard for me to keep track of people here. :\
But, about the people not watching the show...I know I saw someone who said that they had been deeply disappointed in the show for 2 1/2 years. Many others talk about how the show has been going downhill since S6 or S7. That's a long time to watch a show you're not enjoying.
If people are only starting to dislike, that's fine. They should keep watching for however long they want, but I still wish they would express their displeasure in other ways than by calling people(including Joe) names. Because, to them, if I agree with something the 'arrogant, ego-maniac' Joe says I'm nothing more than a stupid syncophant.
Carole said:
Hey Joe - just saw your post at the other site where you answer questions and found your post re: the Vala thing a great testament to what many people here think is wrong with your attitude - arrogance personified in that you say anyone who thinks that way about Vala is waaaay wrong - this just confirms what so many have been saying. You think because you, including your friends who make up the proverbial PTB say it, the poor stupid fans should believe it and if they don't well then they are the stupid ones and waaay wrong about it.
Carole, I believe you're refering to a post over at the Solutions forum and I think you've mis-represented what he actually said. I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but he was talking about people who chose to look upon Vala's actions in Beachead as opportunism rather than seeing it as her "almost sacrifce" are reaaaaaally reeeeeaching in a big way (that is a direct quote).
First of all, saying someone is reaaaaaally reeeeeaching is different from saying they are waaaay wrong or stupid.
Secondly, I would argue that it's not arrogance personified for the people who actually write and produce the show to have a better handle on the interpretation of certain scenes than the fans, it came from their heads after all. If they had intended for us to see Vala's actions as opportunism then I think TPTB would have shown that more clearly. The fact that Sam said after that she (Vala)was right and the team were shown to be worried about what had happened to her and consoling Daniel about her fate, says to me that they saw her actions as sacrifice rather than opportunism.
I can understand not liking a character but to insult someone for defending a character he helped create and obviously likes and who has a clear idea of what that character's actions mean, seems to me to be very rude at best. You might not like what he says but try to at least respect that he has better "insider infomation" about the characters and the show than you (or any other fan) has.
yabyumpan
yabyumpan,
While your point of view is perfectly a valid one, you're also getting into the rather grey area that is artistic theory. Without going into it here, it's not necessarily true that the writer's interpretation is the "right" one, or the one with the most merit. Even though your assertion that Joe is "right" because he's the writer seems to be intuitive, it's actually not that simple of an issue. Nor should it be an issue that is dismissively brushed away just to cater to the indelicate sensitivies of some fans.
kiyuchan said:
As to Mitchell...I don't think we know what his experience is beyond leading the attack in Antartica. We don't know anything else about his past, so I don't see how we can judge his ability to command. Just because they haven't given us his qualifications, doesn't mean they don't exist.
***********************************
It's been said before, but I think it needs to be repeated...
This logic/argument isn't really sound - especially when you compare Cameron to Sam.
Essentially, we've got viewers using the, "Even though they haven't shown it, we don't know WHAT he's capable of" theory for Cameron, but completely denying that the same "courtesy," if you will, should be extended to Sam - someone who has nine years of credibility and experience, and who should (logically) be more likely to be given the benefit of the doubt by fans.
And it's also been agreed upon that Season Eight was NOT utilized as the perfect opportunity to show Sam's leadership abilities, because TPTB were so focused on getting as much RDA/Jack Time in as possible. And that was an understandable desire on their part, of course.
But the irony of THAT decision is the fact that they've managed to completely forget that he existed - and I don't just mean within the content of the episodes. During the months prior to and following the season premiere, you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY mentioning of RDA/Jack by TPTB or the actors (except for one) amongst the S9 Hype.
We can assume all we want about whatever we want, but does it change the fact that we weren't given proper and direct canon references to Sam's capabilities in Season Eight? No, unfortuantely, it does not. Just like it doesn't change the fact that Cameron hasn't been portrayed as a leader whose qualifications warrant him a legitimate spot on SG-1 as its CO. Sure, it's possible that he's ultimately deserving, but until it's shown on screen, it's very difficult to prove that it's plausible.
Obviously it's a matter of preference. A lot of people are die-hard fans/haters of AT and Sam, or die-hard fans/haters of BB and Cam. And then you've got a slightly more objective group that goes either way, depending on their personal points of view.
I just have a hard time believing that Cam should lead THIS SG-1, given his team members and the experience they've established for him. No off-world experience. No experience with the SGC...
It just doesn't make sense.
The whole argument about who has the most experience to lead SG-1 just cracks me up. For one thing, in the real world, managers are chosen all the time who have less experience than the people they're leading. Does it mean the person who's now in charge isn't capbably of doing the job? Possibly. But the opposite is certainly true too. In my company, I can think of two different vice presidents who came in from completely unrelated industries to work for us. They brought their management experience and ability to lead and learn -- just like Mitchell is bringing his previous experience to the job as leader of SG-1. He didn't get promoted to Lt. Col. for sitting in a room by himself all day and reading reports. He was a leader in combat situations, at the very least (because that's all we know so far). To think he can't apply those skills and that knowledge to another job is just silly.
I love it. No matter how illogical, there are still apologists for this asinine predicament. Yes, it is true that inexperienced people are often given jobs over more experienced, better qualified individuals. And such happenings are often loathed and bitched about by those unfortunate people who must now be led by the inexperienced. Yes, it happens in the real world. But that does not make it "ok". That argument does not help Mitchell at all. You're just arguing that bad things happen and that Mitchell leading is that bad thing.
All that aside, the fact is that in combat situations it is always the most qualified, most experienced person who leads. That is how the military operates when it comes to combat. Why does the military operate this way? Because inexperienced commanders get troops killed. There are documented instances of soldiers actually killing their commanding officers in Vietnam because the commanding officer's inexperience was getting the rest of the platoon killed.
If Mitchell had been written to be even remotely experienced in gate travel then an argument could be made that he should lead. But that's not how he was written, and that's not how the character is acted. Like it or not, Mitchell is totally inexperienced when it comes to functioning as part of an SG team. He's extremely green, and that is evidenced by both the writing and by Ben Browder's portrayal of Mitchell. He's intended to look like someone who is completely unfamiliar with off-world travel. And no matter how much you want to argue that it's "just another combat situation", that is not consistent with how postings to the SGC have been classified and portrayed within the context of the show. Being part of an SG team is by the show's definition an extremely specialized assignment. The idea that someone who has never even seen a stargate before could come in and lead the most experienced heroes on Earth is farcical. Is it Mitchell's fault? No. It's bad writing. But that doesn't change the fact that the argument for Mitchell is untenable.
Anonymous said...
Carole said:
Hey Joe - just saw your post at the other site where you answer questions and found your post re: the Vala thing a great testament to what many people here think is wrong with your attitude - arrogance personified in that you say anyone who thinks that way about Vala is waaaay wrong - this just confirms what so many have been saying. You think because you, including your friends who make up the proverbial PTB say it, the poor stupid fans should believe it and if they don't well then they are the stupid ones and waaay wrong about it.
Carole, I believe you're refering to a post over at the Solutions forum and I think you've mis-represented what he actually said. I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but he was talking about people who chose to look upon Vala's actions in Beachead as opportunism rather than seeing it as her "almost sacrifce" are reaaaaaally reeeeeaching in a big way (that is a direct quote).
First of all, saying someone is reaaaaaally reeeeeaching is different from saying they are waaaay wrong or stupid.
Secondly, I would argue that it's not arrogance personified for the people who actually write and produce the show to have a better handle on the interpretation of certain scenes than the fans, it came from their heads after all. If they had intended for us to see Vala's actions as opportunism then I think TPTB would have shown that more clearly. The fact that Sam said after that she (Vala)was right and the team were shown to be worried about what had happened to her and consoling Daniel about her fate, says to me that they saw her actions as sacrifice rather than opportunism.
I can understand not liking a character but to insult someone for defending a character he helped create and obviously likes and who has a clear idea of what that character's actions mean, seems to me to be very rude at best. You might not like what he says but try to at least respect that he has better "insider infomation" about the characters and the show than you (or any other fan) has.
yabyumpan
Thanks yabyumpan, can I invite you to join a merry group at Sony Board? :)
At Solutions forum Joe was answering my question, which was: "Joe,
how do you think, why some Gaters are so unforgiving, that no matter what Vala does or will do (in season 10) to "redeem" herself, there's NO WAY they will accept her on the team? I must say it's kinda frightening..."
And Joe's FULL answer was: "There are some people who don't like the character, so their dislike of the character will taint their logic in this respect. I know people don't like to hear it, but Teal'c was a former enemy and a murderer prior to joining SG-1. And look at how that worked out? I've read some of the arguments against Vala but I would point out that she did go a long way toward redeeming herself in Beachhead. And, I'm sorry, but anyone who argues that her "almost sacrifice" at episode's end was just anothe facet of her opportunism is reaaaaaally reeeeeaching in a big way."
It seems to me that some people are not able to read in English properly and love to change everything into something they WANT to see, but what really isn't.
I don't think Vala was being opportunistic at the end of Beachhead. That's not the right word.
I think she came up with a solution based on what Sam was saying and, since she couldn't get a word in edgewise, took action instead.
But if anyone suggests that she did it for the sake of selflessly sacrificing herself to save the others, then I suggest you listen to her own words where she clearly states that part of her motivation was so that she could essentially gloat at being right and could be thanked immensely. She expected to survive and be lauded for her deeds.
I'm not being snarky...I really enjoyed her in this episode and In The Powers that Be...but if anyone suggests that she intentionally sacrificed herself for selfless reasons, they need to rewatch that episode.
So I agree...to say her motives were opportunistic is a big ol' stretch...but so is suggesting that they were purely altruistic.
Mary Beth
there is no altruistic action.
you fail at the philo evaluation.
Kalliope said:
"Thanks yabyumpan, can I invite you to join a merry group at Sony Board?
...
It seems to me that some people are not able to read in English properly and love to change everything into something they WANT to see, but what really isn't."
***********************************
Oh, the irony of it all...
Joe also said on that particular site that Sam, "is one of the smartest people on the base and fully capable of understanding what [the medical personnel are] doing (and capable of offering intelligent opinions on what's going on)," and "the VD shippers (is that what they call themselves?) are certainly free to read whatever they like into their scenes together..."
But I'm sure the Merry Group at Sony will twist those statements (and a few others) into whatever fits their agenda...
Anonymous said...
there is no altruistic action.
you fail at the philo evaluation.
What? I didn't say anything about an altruistic action. I said, and I quote, "to say her motives were opportunistic is a big ol' stretch...but so is suggesting that they were purely altruistic."
The "they" referred back to her motives for the actions, not the actions themselves.
You fail Reading 101.
Mary Beth
sg1fanatic said...
yabyumpan,
While your point of view is perfectly a valid one, you're also getting into the rather grey area that is artistic theory. Without going into it here, it's not necessarily true that the writer's interpretation is the "right" one, or the one with the most merit. Even though your assertion that Joe is "right" because he's the writer seems to be intuitive, it's actually not that simple of an issue. Nor should it be an issue that is dismissively brushed away just to cater to the indelicate sensitivies of some fans.
I have some familiarity with the idea of artistic theory and while I can agree with it in some respects, i.e. once an artist's work is in the public domain then it is open to all and any interpretations and that those interpretations are valid, I do think that the idea in the artists mind originally is the MOST valid. It's not about ownership of the work but about understanding it.
To take this back to Stargate: I really don't like the S/J ship and I can fanwank my way around the show and put various interprations on looks,words and scenes. I can deny it, ignore it and generally argue it out of existance, but at the end of the day I've got to be honest with myself and admit that the PTB intended, with their writing and direction, that Sam and Jack have romantic feelings for one another. I don't like it but for me to deny what was actually intended just seems a pretty stupid and futile thing for me to do.
Artistic theory is fine and a good way of looking at things but, IMO, it falls down when it's used to deny the original artistic intent.
yabyumpan
I was the fan that stole your puddle jumper, sorry. :)
Yabyumpan wrote:
I have some familiarity with the idea of artistic theory and while I can agree with it in some respects, i.e. once an artist's work is in the public domain then it is open to all and any interpretations and that those interpretations are valid, I do think that the idea in the artists mind originally is the MOST valid. It's not about ownership of the work but about understanding it.
To take this back to Stargate: I really don't like the S/J ship and I can fanwank my way around the show and put various interprations on looks,words and scenes. I can deny it, ignore it and generally argue it out of existance, but at the end of the day I've got to be honest with myself and admit that the PTB intended, with their writing and direction, that Sam and Jack have romantic feelings for one another. I don't like it but for me to deny what was actually intended just seems a pretty stupid and futile thing for me to do.
Artistic theory is fine and a good way of looking at things but, IMO, it falls down when it's used to deny the original artistic intent.
yabyumpan
Original artistic intent should absolutely be taken into consideration. And I think that most of the fans do take that into consideration. It is that consideration of original artistic intent that allows us all to judge the success/failure of what the author is presenting us with. I have no doubt that it was the writers' wish to portray Vala as making somewhat of a sacrifice. That is what Joe wants people to see. However, it seems that there is some question as to whether or not the "art" is a successful representation of that or not. I'm not saying that there is a right answer on whether or not Beachead or Vala is successful. In fact I'm sure there are varying opinions on that among both fans and the writers themselves. But just because Joe is partly responsible for the "art", does not make his opinion of its success or failure the end all be all when it comes to judging it.
In fact, given the neccesary collaboration between writer and viewer, it is possible to argue that the audience's reception to a particular work is more important that an artist's. Perhaps if this were a purely artistic endeavor and TPTB were creating Stargate primarily as an outlet for their own creative faculties, then I could be convinced that a work's success or failure would need to be determined by the artist. However, that is not the case. TV shows are written primarily for an intended viewing audience. And it follows that the artist wants (and in the case of a tv writer, needs) the audience to approve of his work.
So, the fact that a significant number of fans are less than happy with Vala's current character or development is, to me, not something that should be dismissed out of hand by the writers. And I don't really think that it is. I think that Joe, first and foremost, wants to sound cool and "in the know" when he posts online. And in order to come across that way he often unintentionally makes statements that disenfranchise many fan's opinions on a variety of matters.
Joe can certainly inform viewers on what the intent was of a given scene, episode, look, whatever. But the artist's intent does not necessarily invalidate a viewer's response. And that is what Joe tried to do in his answer at Solutions.
sg1fanatic
Dr Weir said...
I was the fan that stole your puddle jumper, sorry. :)
Jeepers, Joe. How many people had access to the puddle jumper? I've seen a few others here besides me plus mention has been made of other pj snatchers from other forums.
What kind of security do you have for that puddle jumper anyway???
:D
Mary Beth
Eh, with the way they run through them on Atlantis I'd say puddle jumpers are a dime a dozen. Everyone's got one by now.
any chance people could tone the arguing/debating down, Joseph writes this blog obviously for himself and the fans of the show, the least you could do is keep it civil between one another
This post has been removed by the author.
Of course when the Ancients originally left the Pegasus galaxy, they might also have had a fire sale of sorts..."Buy one Puddle Jumper, get one one-half off. Cash only. Sorry, no deliveries."
MB
So, the fact that a significant number of fans are less than happy with Vala's current character or development is, to me, not something that should be dismissed out of hand by the writers. And I don't really think that it is. I think that Joe, first and foremost, wants to sound cool and "in the know" when he posts online. And in order to come across that way he often unintentionally makes statements that disenfranchise many fan's opinions on a variety of matters.
Joe can certainly inform viewers on what the intent was of a given scene, episode, look, whatever. But the artist's intent does not necessarily invalidate a viewer's response. And that is what Joe tried to do in his answer at Solutions.
sg1fanatic
I don't really want to take up the position of defending Joe. He continues to post on line knowing that he'll probably get some negative responses and I agree that some of his posts can be inflamatory. I also don't want to get into trying to second-guess what his intention is when he posts and responds to posts.
In my original post my main concern was that what he said was being mis-represented. The full content of the original Solutions post has now been put up here so people can decide for them-selves. I do disagree with you about what he tried to do with his response but as neither of us are in his mind and privy to his thought process I guess we'll have to agree to differ :o)
Thank you for an interesting conversation, hopefully we can both find something to enjoy in the rest of the season and next :o)
yabyumpan
someone said: Being part of an SG team is by the show's definition an extremely specialized assignment. The idea that someone who has never even seen a stargate before could come in and lead the most experienced heroes on Earth is farcical. Is it Mitchell's fault? No. It's bad writing. But that doesn't change the fact that the argument for Mitchell is untenable. //
i'll say this. when mitchell was given sg1, it not only had disbanded, but it was in *peacetime*. that's not a bad way of learning to lead an sg team. BUT, when the stuff starting hitting the fan, AND, sam agreed to come back, *that's* when i think sam should have been given the team to command. *she's* the most experienced in gate travel and off world situtations, compared to mitchell. so why didn't it happen? so why wasn't it even discussed? so why wasn't there even a scene....
sally :)
Great point, Sally. Why would Mitchell be allowed to lead the most elite SG team during this time with the Ori threat? It is not logical. And the whole "co-leadership" thing is somewhat of a mess. I wish we knew more about why the leadership situation was written this way. Why not bring in Mitchell as a Major, and learn from the best? Surely there could have been really good stories written about the new major who joins SG-1.
Chocdoc
I just want to make a point - the terms 'majority', 'significant number', 'minority' etc... is all relative.
A number of fans do not post on here or solutions? Why, because people are quite vehiment in their opinions, and not everyone likes to argue why their opinion is as important as everyone elses.
So, because they don't post - does that mean that they no longer matter in the grand scheme of things?
Using the afformentioned terms are great if you want your opinion to become somehow more important then others. But they are also very misleading.
Sure a significant number of fans do not like Vala on this blog - hell the site. Is this because the 'majority' of all fans don't. Or is it because those who do like her and sick of defending their opinions and don't post about her? Same goes with Mitchell.
So, my point is - speak for yourself. Do not use words that validate your opinion which are accurate. Until all fans have a say (and not just fans on a few websites), no one can be sure what the 'majority' of fans want.
Correction of my own typo...
what I meant to say was
"So, my point is - speak for yourself. Do not use words that validate your opinion which are not accurate. Until all fans have a say (and not just fans on a few websites), no one can be sure what the 'majority' of fans want"
Now, that should make more sense.
Joe's answer was: "There are some people who don't like the character, so their dislike of the character will taint their logic in this respect. I know people don't like to hear it, but Teal'c was a former enemy and a murderer prior to joining SG-1. And look at how that worked out? I've read some of the arguments against Vala but I would point out that she did go a long way toward redeeming herself in Beachhead. And, I'm sorry, but anyone who argues that her "almost sacrifice" at episode's end was just anothe facet of her opportunism is reaaaaaally reeeeeaching in a big way."
I stand by what I said - Joe is attempting to tell the fans that dislike Vala and see no redeeming qualities (due to the way in which the character is written) in any of her actions, including Beachhead, that they are wrong, that their logic is tainted ergo stupid. He clearly states that they cannot think logically due to their dislike of the character - please how disrespectful, condescending and arrogant can one man be? He does not know me, nor does he know any other fan who dislikes Vala, and he in no way, shape or form is qualified to tell anyone whether their logic is tainted by anything - geesh - and some of you are defending what he said - please read it again - this time with blinders off. (We cannot be in his head - then he certainly cannot be in the head of any fan to have the gall to say their logic is tainted.) I have seen statements like this made on various threads and people are flamed, and or modded, for having the nerve to tell someone else how to think and for someone to tell someone else their logic is tainted - my goodness I-am-sure-as-shootin that if I ever told anyone who is a die-hard Daniel fan that "their [love] of the character will taint their logic" I would have Daniel fans at my house so fast I would not know what hit me. I would be called arrogant and condescending, and you know what, I would be. This is a flat out insult. Just because there is not enough maturity to accept legitimate criticism of the character and that not everyone will love it just becuse Joe Mallozzi, or one of the other PTB, says love it, does not mean he has the right to insult anyone.
There is no doubt that Joe can come in and say anything he wants about Vala and what they intended - the way the character is written Robert Cooper, or even Claudia Black, could very well walk in here tomorrow and announce that "gee Joe was wrong - Vala's behavior in Beachhead was selfish and self serving because that's the way we want it to be" - the character is written, as are most characters and most situations, so that many, many fans with many, many differing opinions and interpretations of any one scene or any one character can see what they see. Ship between any characters, especially the J/S ship, is a perfect example of that concept. Some love it, some hate it, some could care less and some don't really see it at all. Joe has said before that there are feelings between Jack and Sam, feelings that BOTH have, both actors have said that's the way they played it at times so does that mean that every single fan who hates ship or dislikes it must now stand down and be quiet about it or that any fan who spews hatred on Sam Carter as a whiny-pining, unprofessional soldier who should be courtmartialed for her feelings for a superior officer is "reaaaaaally reeeeeaching in a big way" so they should stand down and be quiet because Joe said that the feelings were mutual and the actors both said they played it this way - no because they have their own opinons, they interpret it differently, it's called free-will and not even the almighty, all knowing, logical thinker Joe Mallozzi can take that away from any one of us.
Vala, just like Daniel, Carter and Mitchell are all written so that all fans see different things and interpet it differently. There is no right or wrong and when Joe makes statements like the one above he is insulting and he is alienating and disenfranchising a large portion of the fan base, the ones that dislike Vala in varying degress. It is a symptom of the disease that I see growing within TPTB at Stargate - they consistently, for several years now, refuse to acknowledge constructive and legitimate criticism (yes some of the criticism goes beyond the pale and is OTT - just like some of the rhetoric from Carter-haters) by either ignoring the fans who make legitimate criticisms or when he (or other PTB) do say something it is arrogant and codescending towards those fans that are not falling all over themselves to love, love love everything about the current state of Stargate, which many also see as having taken a downward turn in quality and consistency and logic and believability (yes they fight aliens but they also managed for at least 6-7 years, to keep an underlying tone of reality and respect and quality in a smartly written, intelligent show and now that seems to have been thrown out the window for the quick, easy, cheap and, in the opinion/ interpretation of many, not so funny way out).
If the argument is that Joe Mallozzi's statement above is not arrogant and that he is not telling me, or others who dislike Vala and see nothing in her actions or qualities as redeeming, to sit down and be quiet and accept what he is saying because HE said it, than every person who hates Carter or dislikes Carter or thinks she is not fit for command must also stand down since Joe has said several times now in different venues that Carter is the smartest person at the SGC etc., etc., etc., and Damien Kindler has said she is the bedrock of SG1 - the Obi-Wan-kenobi of SG1 so THAT was their intention for the character. Ergo there can be no opinions on Vala's behavior that differ from Joe's interpretation therefore there can be no opinions Sam that differ from the interpretations of Joe and other PTB.
This whole forum, all of fandom, is made up of people with differing opinons, differing likes and dislikes, differing interpretations of almost every scene imaginable, that's what it is all about - they write it - fans interpret it - I did not see Vala making any unselfish self-sacrifice for the sake of anyone other than Vala - she said as much by her own admission. Joe has absolutely no right to tell me that my logic is tainted, again I say what arrogant, insulting and condescending behaviour.
Taking this argument to the logical conclusion then all discussion, opinon and argument about whether Carter or Mitchell should lead or not should cease as of this moment because Joe said they are co-leaders, all of TPTB said that Carter was the leader in S8 (Joe clearly states it in his blog - she was the leader in S8), they wrote her as the sole, qualified leader of SG1 - she is fit to command and she is still co-leader of SG1, TPTB said so - end of story, end of opinion, end of argument and end of discussion and anyone who has a differing opinion, whether it be that Mitchell is not qualified to lead or Carter is not qualified to lead are "reaaaaaally reeeeeaching in a big way" and their logic is tainted by thier like or dislike of the characters, so sit-down and be quiet and accept it because Joe said so. Let's see how many people sit down and quietly accept that - not many I would guess (it has not been accepted quietly since the day Joe first said it months ago and he has now clearly repeated it again, clear as a bell they are
CO-LEADERS, at Solutions). Why all of a sudden is anyone who does not like Vala and does not believe that her actions in Beachhead were anything but continued self serving nonsense have to believe what Mr. Mallozzi says no questions asked but when it comes to other characters or situations it does not matter what Mr. Mallozi or TPTB say and people can still have their own opinions and their own interpretation and their own ideas? The whole argument about Vala lacks merit as does Mr. Mallozzi's excuse - otherwise opinion goes out the window, interpretation goes out the window and everyone on this forum should stand down and be quiet and accept what he and the other PTB say no questions asked - and be happy about it. Let's first close down Sony because, based on what Joe and other PTB have said, Sam is wonderful, she is the most intelligent, she was leader is S8 and she is co-leader now, etc,, etc., and she and Jack SHARED their feelings for each other so ne need to blame the whole thing on Sam - shut it down - stop the hatred and the rhetroic, close all of the forums and pack up and go home and just wait for Mr. Mallozzi to tell us what to think so we can all sit quietly, be happy and love, love, love the new Stargate.
I stand by what I said - full quote from Joe and all.
Oh and Kalliope - thanks for the laugh - your reputation precedes you -- you are infamous (look it up -- Websters at Nos. 1 and 2). But you actually did me a favor by quoting the whole answer from Joe so now everyone here can also see the insult, arrognace and condescension for themselves - tainted logic indeed.
Carole
Joe, asusual your entry was facinating and funny. The funny part was the end, good job of standing up for yourself!! Glad you don't listen to the dolts! I love Cameron and I think he is an amazing leader and very well written and played by BB. Keep up the good work. Ignore the trolls!
Please bring back Ford and don't kill Lorne! LOL, you know I always have to say that!
Sorry you didn't get to go SF. If for no other reason, at least you could have gotten away and relaxed. You are a work-a-holic!
All my love and appreciation for what you do here and on Stargate, congrats on being renewed!!
Ya know what, dee? The only fans that matter are the ones that have a cute Nielsen box attached to their TV. The internet fandom can love season nine or hate it, but the fate of the show doesn't lie in their hands. It never has.
Joe,
I read something you wrote on another forum and wasn't sure how to reply:
I did try to find out a little more about why fans don't think Mitchell is an effective leader and, so far, haven't been presented with a very argument. For instance, the notion that Mitchell shouldn't be leading SG-1 because he has no off-world experience. First of all, applying that logic at the establishment of the Stargate Program would have pretty much killed it before it even got off the ground. Secondly, simply because someone has "stepped through the gate" doesn't mean they don't possess a wealth of combat and leadership experience that would be well-suited to off-world ops. < snip > The bottom line is: if people decide they don't like something, they'll create a point of argument even if one doesn't really exist.
With respect, while I'll concede your argument that people can and will fabricate arguments to try to substantiate why they dislike a character, I also believe the flip side is true and people can and will create a pro-arguement for something even if it's clearly ludicrous just because they like a character.
Further, if I may, please allow me to clarify the Mitchell issue as it relates to your above statements because I see why you aren't understanding the objections some in the fanbase have. Obviously, this is JMHO so if others wish to disagree or clarify, feel free.
1. Col. Jack O'Neil from the movie was established as having experience leading ground troops. The series backed this up with more information on his background and training...the whole black ops thing. And although he treated the first mission to Abydos as just another mission that happened to be on another planet (what else was he to do), on more than one occasion it's clearly laid out that offworld missions are a special breed unto their own and require a certain type of specialized training.
Why?
Because of the situations where team members come across alien technology and/or alien entities and need to know what to do in these otherworldy scenarios. In other words, as time went on the SGC clarified its position on this issue and deemed offworld activity as highly specialized...just like they stopped activating the base autodestruct everytime an unexpected offworld wormhole was activated. They learned through experience and time that even being on an SG team required highly specialized training and developed a clear set of protocols and training scenarios for this very thing. Even Lts. Hailey and Elliott saw the stargate before being assigned to a team just for their rigorous training and evaluation...but Mitchell didn't? What kind of training did he receive then?
2. If Mitchell were merely ON SG-1, that would be one thing. However, as he has pointed out on a few occasions, he as at the very least the team leader of record. He came to the SGC expecting to serve under Carter and alongside Daniel and Teal'c...so why not write it that way? Please understand that Mitchell's lack of experience is not a problem with regard to him being on SG-1 as much as it is for us to accept that he is in fact in charge of SG-1...even nominally. After 7 years as the 2IC and a year as the team leader, it seems terribly off to have her officially placed under someone who, while demonstrating incredible skills and daring as a pilot and F302 squadron leader, does not seem to have the skillset and experience to lead an elite special-ops ground team...especially this one.
Thank you,
Mary Beth
"I stand by what I said - Joe is attempting to tell the fans that dislike Vala and see no redeeming qualities (due to the way in which the character is written) in any of her actions, including Beachhead, that they are wrong, that their logic is tainted ergo stupid. He clearly states that they cannot think logically due to their dislike of the character - please how disrespectful, condescending and arrogant can one man be? He does not know me, nor does he know any other fan who dislikes Vala, and he in no way, shape or form is qualified to tell anyone whether their logic is tainted by anything - geesh - and some of you are defending what he said - please read it again - this time with blinders off.
***********************************
Oh noes...
Major Sal said: i would have liked for the writers to have focused on sam leading the team in season 8 too, but they chose to mainly focus on her personal life issues for her character. as a sam fan (besides being an s/j shipper), i was VERY disappointed in that (lack) of developement.
Honey, do you ever actually read any of the stuff you post to Joe's thread? All you've banged on about for months ney years is wanting more and more Sam and Jack, (get rid of Pete) and more Sam and Jack, even now RDA is no longer on the show.
It' s very amusing that you post here saying there has been too much focus on Sam's personal life, when your still asking for it over in Joe's thread.
Dear Maj. General Common Sense...
Sam's personal life doesn't have to be the subject of a major story arc. It was though for a couple of seasons; and, while I was happy that the issue was addressed to the point of seeing them both acknowledge they have unresolved feelings for each other, I would love to have seen more Soldier!Sam and Leader!Sam too. So now, since it's been done, why not show the fruit of all that emotional turmoil with a scene or two every now and then???
And believe it or not, she can actually be an incredibly brilliant, kickbutt Air Force officer AND have a personal life all at the same time.
It's not an either/or proposition.
Respectfully,
Lt. Colonel I Love Multi-faceted Characters
Marybeth/Uber - I concur and add the following regarding Joe's most recent post at Solutions:
Joe said:
"I've tried to check them out but its hard to wade through all of the back and forth to the real issues people are talking about. I did try to find out a little more about why fans don't think Mitchell is an effective leader and, so far, haven't been presented with a very argument. For instance, the notion that Mitchell shouldn't be leading SG-1 because he has no off-world experience. First of all, applying that logic at the establishment of the Stargate Program would have pretty much killed it before it even got off the ground. Secondly, simply because someone has "stepped through the gate" doesn't mean they don't possess a wealth of combat and leadership experience that would be well-suited to off-world ops. My favorite was someone claiming that Mitchell talking at the beginning of Babylon was the reason they were attacked (?). I read that and thought "Why not just blame his strong after-shave?" for alerting the Sodan to their presence. The bottom line is: if people decide they don't like something, they'll create a point of argument even if one doesn't really exist."
JOE - Your excuse falls short and is illogical - at the time of the "establishment of the Stargate Program" I agree, it would have pretty much killed it before it even got off the ground if they were to look for someone with Gate Travel, off-world combat, alien negotiation, alien technology, alien language, etc., experience because NO ONE LIKE THAT EXISTED ergo, no Program. At the time of the "establishment of the Stargate Program" they HAD to accept someone with very few, if any, of those qualifications (however Marybeth has made some good points about Jack's background).
The difference NOW is that the SGC has been around for 8 plus years and, guess what, there ARE HIGHLY QUALIFIED PERSONNEL, INLCLUDING SAM CARTER (who it seems was groomed for command of SG1 as 2IC for 7 years and GIVEN command of SG1 in the 8th year). You do not have to put unqualified people in the leadership role, and make illogical excuses for them, now because there are QUALIFIED PEOPLE - people who have actually seen the Gate, people WITH 8 PLUS YEARS EXPERIENCE with the Gate and its technology, with going off-world AND THROUGH THE GATE, people with off-world combat experience, people with plenty of Jaffa experience, plenty of Anubis, Ba'al, Yu, Alkesh, Kull Warrior, To'kra, etc., etc., etc., experience.
The fact that you chose this as your argument for defending why Mitchell is capable of leading THIS SG1 is completely illogical with the history of the show, the characters and the SGC Program.
BTW there are other examples and logical reasons as to why Mitchell is not qualified to lead this SG1 as shown in the episodes wherein he makes stunningly bad decisions (it appears mostly to move the plot along), mistakes that a seasoned combat soldier should not be making. Light switch hhmmpphh - because he made a funny that is supposed to make his mistake okay? Because Daniel, a civilian, a man with 8 plus years experience with alien language, off-world travel, etc., "TOUCHES" things that makes it okay for a supposed combat leader caliber soldier to make such newbie mistakes? Either the guy has experience or he doesn't there cannot be an argument that he is new so he will make mistakes so go easy on him and then another argument that he is supposedly qualified to lead THIS SG1 because he has regular combat experience (not off-world experience but he has combat experience and that makes him qualified, so we are told). Which is it - he does have combat experience so he deserves to co-lead - well then he should not be making newbie mistakes and expect to be forgiven for them --- or he doesn't and then he should not be co-leader with someone of the caliber and experience of Carter.
The set-up for Mitchell is illogical with what you are trying to do, he has already admitted that he is not one of the best, he came to learn from the best, that would be Carter, Daniel and Teal'c, he already was set-up as having come to the SGC to train UNDER Carter's command. With that set-up, and the fact that EVERYONE KNEW Carter would be back because EVERYONE knew AT would be back it makes Mitchell's situation even more illogical and it is a wonder how TPTB ever let it get to be such a full-blown mess.
Finally, just a real quick nod to Carole, whose post above I support: Joe - your ending paragraph is akin to a back-handed insult. Once again you are saying if you don't like it you are crazy; we love it, we say you should love it and if you don't you are reaching for reasons and arguments that don't exist (well I beg to differ and site to Marybeth's and my posts herein, as well as hundreds of posts elsewhere on this forum and others, describing the poblem with Mitchell and the completely illogical position he has been given based on history and facts from the show).
The bottom line Joe is this - many forum fans have experessed disbelief in the fact that Mitchell is co-leader given HIS INEXPERIENCE versus the EXPERIENCE of others who have been with the SGC for many, many years, in particular one character who was 2IC of the elite team for 7 years and gained immeasureable experience in the whys and wherefores of Gate travel, off-world combat, saving the world, and dealings with aliens, friend and foe and who was made leader of SG1 in the 8th year, before Mitchell ever even existed as a twinkle in TPTB eye.
Perhaps for a change of pace you should consider stopping the insults you throw at the fans who express legitimate criticism and truly listen to them. You dismiss all criticism out of hand with tainted logic, and other poor excuses that have very little merit, and you do not honestly address the real issue. How to justify Mitchell as co-leader with his inexperience when presented with Carter and her 8 years worth of experience, one as leader because TPTB made her the leader (and you know already the AT maternity argument, therefore the Sam was away argument, lacks merit as well since everyone, and I mean everyone, knew she was coming back after 5 episodes AND you all chose to write the show so there was NO SG1 UNTIL Sam returned. Remember SG-Me. Obviously, since there really was no SG1 until Sam returned there was no reason whatsover, at least no logical, believable, justifiable, reason based on the history of the show and it's characters, for Mitchell to have co-leadership of THIS SG1.
THAT is the issue, coupled with Mitchell's lack of experience off-world, the fact he never even SAW a Gate before he got to the SGC, the history we have with Hailey and Elliott's training as mentioned by Marybeth above, the history we have with Jack telling the Russian he's out for the same exact reasons so many question the logic of Mitchell as co-leader, (just a few examples of the bad logic that is Mitchell's situation) and finally, Mitchell's astoundingly bad judgement in several instances thus far.
Binkpmmc (Binky/Bink/Pinky to some)
In my company, I can think of two different vice presidents who came in from completely unrelated industries to work for us. They brought their management experience and ability to lead and learn -- just like Mitchell is bringing his previous experience to the job as leader of SG-1.
And aren't you glad they weren't leading you into battle on a foreign planet with your life on the line? I know I'd feel a little differently about my manager's experience level if I might die a gruesome and painful death if they screwed up...
If I was given an opportunity to go through the gate with anyone in the world, who would I pick to go with me? Given what we've seen so far, it sure wouldn't be Mitchell. I'd follow Vala long before I followed him. I'd say off-world experience is pretty darn important when dealing with off-world matters. Different skill set, you know.
Cheers,
Strix varia
Ha, ha! Good defense of Mitchell, Joe. That's rich. I do wonder why they didn't appoint someone with offworld experience to the team back when the SGC started. Whoo, lay off the crack pipe, killer. And if that's your idea of "helping" Mitchell then I think he'd be better off going it alone.
Some people here are definitely in a serious need of psychiatric help...
I'm not even going to get into the SG-1 debate, since I've given up on that show. It started to go downhill, in my opinion, right around season 7, but up until that point I loved it so much that I wasn't willing to part with it. I hoped maybe it would get back to the real SG-1. Stupid of me. I might tune into a few more episodes of season 9 (I'm at least going to watch the finale, since John Noble is going to be in it), but I have no intention of watching season 10 at all.
That said, I've been greatly enjoying Atlantis so far--although it is not without its share of problems--and I still see some hope for that show, unlike its predecessor. All I want to say, therefore, is: STOP making John Sheppard into a man-whore. This is Stargate, not Star Trek. No matter how much you may want him to be Captain Kirk reborn, he is not. No matter how funny you think McKay's Kirk jokes are, they are not. You may like the idea of him making out with random hot alien women, and obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I know there are other fans out there besides me who think it's disgusting, juvenile, stupid, and completely unnecessary. I suppose it's probably some kind of male fantasy wish-fulfillment thing, but despite your best efforts, there are still people who watch the show who do not fall into the 18-24 year old male demographic.
This isn't necessarily aimed at Joe in particular, it's more meant for the collective PTB, whoever's making those decisions about Sheppard which ruin an otherwise excellent show and make me avoid the "Kirking" episodes like the Black Death.
major general common sense said: Honey, do you ever actually read any of the stuff you post to Joe's thread? All you've banged on about for months ney years is wanting more and more Sam and Jack, (get rid of Pete) and more Sam and Jack, even now RDA is no longer on the show.
It' s very amusing that you post here saying there has been too much focus on Sam's personal life, when your still asking for it over in Joe's thread. //
but i didn't say they focused too much on her personal life. i said that they chose to focus on her personal BUT not focus on her command storyline *too*.
btw, i 'have' asked joe about this sam/command issue on his thread, but i actually thought that issue would resolve itself (by the writers addressing it) so i focused more on the ship issue in my questions.
there's no need to focus on any one topic for a character. last season, sam had her personal life to settle AND her commanding sg1. the writers focused more on her personal life, but basically ignored her commanding sg1. they did show things here and there, but in no way *really* showed what it must be like for her to finally have her own command. and there was no excuse. but i still believed she was commanding and had the skills too. so now we start season 9 with her suddenly not having or wanting the team. that doesn't follow what the writers have been leading up to for years OR what we know about sam's ambition.
and yes, i've been focusing more on the ship issue, but that's because the more i was denied and the more i was screwed with (as a shipper), the more the issue became important and relevant. it's that simple.
basically, in answer to your statement: they could have written *both* storylines at the same time. it's that simple too.
sally :)
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Hi Joe,
I just wanted to express my confusion with your statements on Solutions, along with many others. I understand why you go there so often these days (what with the unmoderated hostility here), but I kind of wish you had posed your concerns with the leadership issue here as well. I'd like to think that someone would have cleared this up for you in a calm and respectful manner...
You mentioned that the SGC can't always send fully-qualified Air Force officers, but really that logic could only hold water in regards to the first few years of the SGC's existence. This has actually been mentioned before by other fans. And that definitely makes sense, too. It would have been impossible to recruit seasoned officers with off-world experience if no one had ever been off-world before.
But Jack's field experience was established in the movie, making him a logical choice for the commander of that mission. In regards to the series, Jack's off-world experience (from the film) made him the most qualified for the CO position on SG-1, just as Kawalsky's experience made him the most qualified for SG-2.
Mitchell was established as a pilot and a leader of a squadron at the beginning of S9. Those qualities were excellent when it came to saving SG-1's life in Antarctica during a firefight. However, it has been established multiple times that Mitchell simply didn't have the experience to lead SG-1.
He said he wanted to serve under Sam, Teal'c and Daniel multiple times - suggesting that he was both humble and recognized his lack of experience. Perhaps if Mitchell had been established as a CO of SG-12 or something, it would have been more believable and understandable. And, of course if Sam, Daniel and Teal'c had never come back, it definitely would have made more sense. As it was developed, this new guy really did kinda come in and take over a job for which many, many other people were qualified - most of all, the three people he'd be leading.
I can't speak for everyone, but I think a lot of people have taken umbrage to this issue because everybody knew that Sam would be coming back. And the art of scifi (and fantasy in general) is the opportunity to create a perfectly viable plot device that could have explained her absence, while still guaranteeing her position as leader of SG-1. It also would have brought Cameron's feelings in regards to leading SG-1 full circle, as he would've truly gotten the band back together with its leader from the previous year in place.
The leader issue is a problem as well. There are many facets to this issue, but I have two:
First of all, AT (and I believe another producer) said last year, before Season Eight started, that Sam wouldn't be bossing Teal'c and Daniel around as leader - because they're essentially equals. They've been written as such, and I believe the actors have played it as such, very well in fact. And it's a nice evolution to "free agents," as someone has called them. They all serve various purposes, while working together as a well-oiled machine.
Fast forward to this year, and that's evidently quite different. Rather than the three equal players working together, with the most experienced Air Force officer being the "on paper" leader, the three equals are answering to an "on paper" leader, who is less experienced than all of them.
Secondly, the co-leadership issue is very difficult to justify, considering how clear the chain of command was in the past. Who makes the decisions in the field now? I like that Sam and Cam are friends, but it's inevitable for SG-1 to someday run into a situation where Sam and Cam have differing opinions. And something tells me that rock/paper/scissors, while hilarious, wouldn't exactly work...
I like Mitchell and Vala. I really like Ben Browder and Claudia Black. And I think it's neat that so many scifi icons are together on one great show. But, just as I can criticize Sam, Daniel or Teal'c for the weird things they do, I think it's important to recognize the flaws in Cameron and Vala when we see issues with them - especially when these characters have such few opportunities for immediate redemption like Daniel, Teal'c and Sam.
majorsal said "basically, in answer to your statement: they could have written *both* storylines at the same time. it's that simple too."
Hmm. I guess Daniel and Teal'c could have taken a long vacation while all this was going on?
Maybe it would be better to give Sam her own spin-off, where she can nobly lead a band of new recruits through the 'gate by day (only those few who don't fall in love with her would survive the mission) and chat on the phone for hours with Jack by night. Sounds good to me: you get lots of Sam, and I don't have to watch her at all!
exhausted,
are you like totally cracked or something? you're attacking someone you've never met before, simply because they express a different opinion than you. i don't know majorsal at all, and neither do you, so let me ask, What the hell is your problem. if you want to bash Sam (and we all know you do), that's fine, but lay off on real, living people. b/c right now all you seem like is a coward worthless of any respect, from others and from yourself.
Please. If anyone needs to be written into a spinoff it's Vala. That way the writers don't have to spend time figuring out how to write her into season ten. Stargate fans who prefer the traditional style of SG1 can continue to watch that show, while fans who prefer the new "Let's make babies!" T&A fest can click over to that. I know which one I'd watch.
"are you like totally cracked or something? you're attacking someone you've never met before, simply because they express a different opinion than you. i don't know majorsal at all, and neither do you, so let me ask, What the hell is your problem. if you want to bash Sam (and we all know you do), that's fine, but lay off on real, living people. b/c right now all you seem like is a coward worthless of any respect, from others and from yourself. "
Compared to some of the other things people are saying to each other, that was pretty mild. Sadly, though, most people only seem interested in the injustice of it all when nasty things are said to or about someone they agree with rather than being upset that it was said at all.
b/c right now all you seem like is a coward worthless of any respect, from others and from yourself.
Oh, not to worry, I have plenty of self respect. A lot more than shippers who Won't. Let. Go. even after the writers catered to them for 4 long years and even after 1/2 of their fav couple left the show!
I very much fear the 'significant loss' we'll be seeing in episode 7 will be Jack dying, as Cooper finally kills the ship along with a beloved character :-(
I was not attacking Majorsal anyway. Just pointing out a way for all of us to be happy. I honestly feel sorry that Majorsal has virtually no chance of ever getting what she wants out of the current SG-1.
It's funny to see the stuff about fans not liking Vala. She certainly isn't the first character added to the show to meet with disapproval from a sector of fandom. What's even funnier is to see the newbies being so horrified, especially one who has alighned herself with a certain faction that was pretty frightening in the way they treated the introduction of a certain new character. And she expects Joe Mallozzi to agree with her about this type of fan behavior? That's really funny.
Once upon a time things read like this:
how do you think, why some Gaters are so unforgiving, that no matter what Jonas does or will do (in season 10) to "redeem" himself, there's NO WAY they will accept him on the team? I must say it's kinda frightening..."
It's simple, really.
More Vala = more Daniel. Therefore, hardcore Daniel fans are going to support Vala, no matter what. Unless she starts to overshadow Daniel, and then she'll lose any support from that part of the fanbase. Vala is not only redeemable, she's considered by many to already be part of the team.
Jonas = a horrid, awful substitute for Daniel in season six, the season that cannot even be mentioned by hardcore Daniel fans. Ideally Jonas should never be discussed again, unless it's to bring up his numerous flaws. Jonas will always be irredeemable because he dared to try and take over Daniel's spot.
Make sense now? No? That's okay, I don't really get it either.
Happy Holidays Joe (et al!)
Mo
Anonymous said...
It's simple, really.
More Vala = more Daniel. Therefore, hardcore Daniel fans are going to support Vala, no matter what. Unless she starts to overshadow Daniel, and then she'll lose any support from that part of the fanbase. Vala is not only redeemable, she's considered by many to already be part of the team.
Or even worse, if she's written as
less than Vala for the rest of this season.
Or even in season 10.
Let me get this straight Joe--you'll rag on episodes from earlier in the show like Emancipation and Hathor, but then put out episodes like The Tower? Stop pretending that you're putting out anything less clumsy or cliched or BAD. This was awful.
Joe - re: a question recently posed to you at Solutions:
I hope you read the posts here carefully - you will see that many who feel Mitchell is not qualified to co-lead SG1 say that there are plenty of other more experienced SGC personnel, not just Sam Carter. It is most believable and plausible that Carter would and should be the leader because of the factual history of the show and the character, groomed as Jack's 2IC for 7 years and leader for 1 year therefore she is emminently qualified, she is however, not the only one capable from an experience standpoint.
As many people, including fans of Sam Carter, have pointed out there are plenty of other SGC personnel with Gate travel and off-world combat experience who also could have been leader of SG1 and it would have made emminently more sense than Mitchell who had never even seen the Stargate before.
Why do you think "some" people are so transfixed on asking you questions about what other fans think and their motives? You certainly cannnot know anyone's thought process just like we are not capable of knowing yours. It seems kind of petulant of certain fans to keep asking you questions about other fans posts and opinions hoping you will say something negative about them and appear to agree with his/her opinions of a certain character.
Alice H
Hey Joe,
It sounds to me like everyone just wants a logical explanation for why Mitchell is in charge (or even sharing command with Carter). Right, dear fellow fans?
So I say give them a reason, in a scene like this:
LANDRY'S OFFICE: Landry explains to a complaining Carter how he read her file and simply didn't trust her to have sole command of SG-1. He tells her he will not let her off the hook for her errors in judgement the way his predecessor O'Neill did. To hint at what he's talking about (her feeeeelings, of course), he waggles his abundant eyebrows and winks knowingly. She gulps expressively but manages not to cry, though she asks if "Sir" is aware of what's happening. Landry assures her that O'Neill has approved, tells her to take 2 weeks off and get her act together, and dismisses her with a stern glance.
Mitchell enters; Landry tells him he's in sole command of SG-1. Mitchell looks surprised and says "I thought I already was, sir." Landry looks him in the eye and apologizes, making some vague reference to spineless bureaucrats. Mitchell nods and takes a seat to discuss the next SG-1 mission.
The End.
Ooh, I think I have a future in this screen writing thing.
Screenwriters who are heavily medicated or who abuse mind-altering drugs are typically NOT taken seriously.
be careful what you wish for spake thus: "It sounds to me like everyone just wants a logical explanation..."
So where's your logical one?
Anyway, "everyone" doesn't. It's too much boring effort to white spirit one's way out of this painted corner. Write it off.
Sam's in co-command of SG-1. You'll just have to like it or lump it.
Funny how the Sam-bashers have to make a writing issue over [b]Mitchell[/b] all about bashing Sam, huh? What's Mitchell's backstory got to do with Carter? Nothing. But Sam-bashers will twist anything into a squicky Sam-hate-fest. Losers.
So where's your logical one?
A logical, believable sequence of events was presented in Avalon 1/2 etc. I won't bore everyone with a recap. Let's be honest and admit it's only Carter not getting command by her lonesome that bothers folks -- it wouldn't matter how Mitchell was introduced.
I do agree with you on one point: Carter is not in charge because TPTB wrote it that way. Let's move on.
You're right: A logical, believable sequence of events were presented in Avalon 1 and 2.
But that logic was immediately destroyed once THE ORIGINAL SG-1 reunited - with its previous leader (the leader Mitchell was written as WANTING to serve under) intact.
And let's be honest and admit that it's the fact that Carter ISN'T completely in charge that has some folks squealing with unadulterated glee over the prospects of Season 10 - not Mitchell's overwhelmingly fantastic leadership skills.
I do agree with you on that point as well: Carter is not in charge because TPTB wrote it that way.
And, as we discuss this lone fact, it becomes more and more apparent WHY they went down that road...
Hey Joe,
The other day, my sister and I were watching StarGate, and after it was over, we changed the channel, and a Christmas carol commercial thing was on... And I started making up words to go with them.
'Tis the season to have StarGate Fa la la la la la la la la
Daniel, O'Neill, and Carter, too
Fa la la la la la la la la
Teal'c is awesome, he's a Jaffa
Fa la la la la la la la la
Screw the Goa'uld, the Asgard rule
Fa la la la la la la la la
We're currently working on 'Jingle Bells...'
Jingle Bells,
Jack hates Elves;
Daniel read a book;
All of Carter's boyfriends die,
And is Teal'c is getting drunk!
(It took us forever to thing of Teal'c's line).
We're also working on 'All I Want for Christmas is Yuu' and 'The Twelve Days of Stargate', which we are close to finishing, and will post after Christmas, as we have to leave now!
Joe
How does the concept of the Ori making some kind of dimensional rift, to try and smite the non believers of the Ori sound, more specifically Earth, i think itd be a good few part episode, with SG1, mainly Carter working with the Asgard on some kind of method to close the rift, and maybe add some space battles between the big huge ori ships and the earth/free jaffa alialance, all fighting to save the milky way galaxy, i notice SG1 lacks a lot of pure space episodes, with focus on saving the universe.. maybe itd be a good episode in a few years time or something, like say the Ori focusing all their power to destroy the milky way galaxy via some kind of rift, because they"ve lost the priors and their worships.. maybe include an ancient or 2, and maybe Jack
just an idea i thought proberly sucks though
Take this as you will. This is for everyone.
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it.
~Stephen Vizinczey
AND
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
~Euripides
"Lioness"
Wow! This place is so much more entertaining than the show itself. I must remmeber to stop by more often.
Happy Holidays!
who's cardinal vanderplaankt? :p
I know you've probably heard this a million times, but this is my first time whining about it, so bare with me. Why are you guys so MEAN? What's going on with Sam and Jack? Since I haven't been keeping up with SG-1 online, it might have been explained somewhere, but I haven't seen anything resolved on the show, so I'm going to complain some more. We've been led on for 8 1/2 seasons!! Give us resolutions!!! I want to know what happened between the two of them even if RDA can't come back for an episode. PLEASE!!! Thanks- the show's awesome by the way.
TLWROX